1 Week Of Fish In Cycle

[dazzadub]

Because of a pet shop I've had no choice to go a fish in cycle route.

Started with
40 ltr tank
6 fish

50% of the water was from my 22ltr tank with the gravel, added new gravel and live plants

Day 1.
Zero nirities, zero nitrates, 8.0 ammonia

Did a 50% eater change and added some live bacteria from tetra, and treated water with prime and stability from seachem
Added a API detox bag to the filter.

Day 2.
No water test as pointless

20% eater change with some stability and a filter boost
Added some prime media from a friends tank.

Day 3.

Ammonia 8, nirities 0, nitrates 0

50% water change, stopped feeds, removed excess food, added stability and some aqua salt.


Day 4.

No test

Stability, live bacteria

Male Betta died


Day 5

Ammonia 1.0, nirities a trace and nitrates a trace
're homed 2 female fighters, still no feeding
Stability and some prime


Day 6

No test

20% water change, prime, stability

Day 7, today.

Tests this morning, ammonia 0.25, nitrites and nitrate increased.

Cloudy water from abacteria bloom.
Stability, salt and live bacteria

And will do a 50% eater change before I go bed.


This is what I've done over the last 7 days, with a rand new set up with fish in, all the 5 original fish are alive and doing well, fingers crossed.

 

[the_lock_man]

Interesting, using two different bacteria-in-a-bottle products. Tetra SafeStart is one of the few that I've heard good things about, although I'd like to see a bit more of a scientific study on Stability, having read their website, it sounds like an interesting product to test.
 
I'm not surprised the betta died, being exposed to 8ppm ammonia for 4 days.
 
The good news is that it seems as though the ammonia is coming under control, it may well be the Safe Start that's doing that. I would suggest you test daily, and see what the nitrite level does. The toxicity of nitrite can be cancelled by adding table salt at a concentration of 15 x that of the nitrite - so if you have 1ppm of nitrite, you have to add 15ppm of salt. Happily, PPM is the same things as MG/L, so for a 40l tank, you would add 15x40 = 600mg (or 0.6g) to the tank).
 
This will allow the filter bacteria to feed on the nitrite, whilst the fish won't be suffering. Obviously, keep testing, and add an additional 15ppm table salt for every additional 1ppm nitrite that your test result shows. That is, until the test gets to 5ppm. At that point, you need to add the additional table salt to keep the level up to the 10x nitrite, as per previously. Then you need to change 50% of water. Then you need to replace the salt that you've just taken out. You will have added 75ppm salt at that point, and having removed 50% of that, you need to replace it, so you need to add 37½ppm, probably best to round that up to 40ppm. In your 40l tank, 40l x 40ppm  = 1600ppm = 1.6g.
 
Don't do a daily water change throughout this time, otherwise you will be removing the nitrite that your bacteria need to grow. However, once nitrite gets to a certain level, it can prevent further bacterial growth. Removing some of the nitrite when the test gets to 5ppm means that you won't let the nitrite level get to that stage.
 
Hope this helps.

 

[dazzadub]

Day 8,


Salt has been added, 50% water change, stability and also some tetra live bacteria


I have used salt, mainly to help gill function and help prevent illness, the Betta came to me looking half dead anyway, so wasn't a surprise.

The tank is now being left for 3 days, with no water changes as I'm away with football in Germany, but stability is being added each day till I return.

I didn't get the nirite or nitrate figures more concerned with the ammonia, but I was told they were half way up the scale and that the tank is cycling nicely.

 

[the_lock_man]

The tank is now being left for 3 days, with no water changes as I'm away with football in Germany, but stability is being added each day till I return.
 

 
 Eek! Let's hope they make it.
 
Please remember that nitrite is just as toxic as ammonia, it prevents the blood from transporting oxygen around the body, so the fish feel like they are being suffocated, I appreciate that your initial priority was ammonia, but since this appears to be coming under control, you need to shift your priority to include nitrite.

 

[dazzadub]

That' is my priority now but I don't really have a choice but leave them, stability should keep the levels down, and it nutrilizes the toxins in the water. Also have some prime media in it and some added live bacteria.

My wife is keeping Wye on them while away, but she hasn't much care for looking after them, I've left her a number to call my local awautics shop if they look crap, they will come out and do what ever.

My wife had a habit when tank first went in, was to feed them 3 times a day, so can't really trust to do a water change.

My uncle who also used to keep fish is at my home tomoz doing some work so will test eater for me as left on his instructions , he is a plumber coming to do some work for me, so it's in his list lol

 

[l_l_l]

Special thought for you and your fishes going through something I have seen way too often!
Hopefully you get this right

 

[Rak9378]

That' is my priority now but I don't really have a choice but leave them, stability should keep the levels down, and it nutrilizes the toxins in the water.

Dazz- I've never used stability so I could be wrong but I don't believe it neutralizes nitrite. You might be thinking of Prime, another seachem product. Using stability alone will not prevent the problem that t_l_m is describing.

 

[dazzadub]

Stability

Stabilizes the toxic elements in the water as does prime.

 

[Rak9378]

Sorry I just don't think that is correct. Not trying to argue I just don't want someone reading this to think they can use Stability to detoxify ammonia or nitrites. I searched the Seachem website and I don't see anything that indicates Stability neutralizes/detoxifies toxins. I did find this exchange in their support section. Take note of the response from the Seachem rep:

Stability prevents new tank syndrome by rapidly establishing the biofilter, or by expediting the nitrogen cycle. It will not, however, prevent the tank from experiencing an ammonia spike or a nitrite spike, as these are natural steps involved in the nitrogen cycle. With that said, if you are going to add your fish before the tank has fully cycled, then it will be very important to add Prime every 48 hours in order to detoxify ammonia and nitrites as they form.

http/www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=4047

 

[looking-glass]

Sorry I just don't think that is correct. Not trying to argue I just don't want someone reading this to think they can use Stability to detoxify ammonia or nitrites. I searched the Seachem website and I don't see anything that indicates Stability neutralizes/detoxifies toxins. I did find this exchange in their support section. Take note of the response from the Seachem rep:
 

Stability prevents new tank syndrome by rapidly establishing the biofilter, or by expediting the nitrogen cycle. It will not, however, prevent the tank from experiencing an ammonia spike or a nitrite spike, as these are natural steps involved in the nitrogen cycle. With that said, if you are going to add your fish before the tank has fully cycled, then it will be very important to add Prime every 48 hours in order to detoxify ammonia and nitrites as they form.

http/www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=4047
 

I think its the prime that does this - buts its best used in conjunction with stability as it helps kick start the bacteria into breaking down the ammonia etc  

 

[dazzadub]

Think thats it, bottles say detoxifies ammonia and nitrite.


Anyway week 2


Day8,
50% water change with prime
Added some stability.

Removed the ammonia detox bag also

Day 9.

Stability added


Day 10

20% water change with prime
Stability

Day 11

Water tested, ammonia between 0-0.25, nit rites 1ppm, nitrates very little, so telling me it's cycling.


Day 12

Water change 20% using prime and stability


Day 13

Water was making a very odd smell, so again I did a water change 20%, which made the water smell go, used prime and reduced the stability.


Day 14 today

I haven't used any products today and will from now on leave the water and bacteria alone for next 7 days with 1 eater change in the middle, and then will test the water and see where I'm at.

Today I've also been eyeing a new larger tank Roma 125 which I should be buying in next few days, some have suggested fishless cycle some suggest add fish.


Will post up when starting.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

1. I suggest you follow the method outlined in the cycling article on the site rather than whatever method you are now following.
 
2. Stability contains none of the live nitrifying bacteria or archaea desired in tanks. It contains spores for other bacteria. The nitrifying bacteria and archaea do not reproduce via spores so none of them are in Stability. If you want a bottled bacteria 1st choice would be DrTim's One and Only or Tetra Safe Start. You should get a tank cycled in about 7days using One and Only in a single addition. A bit longer with Safe Start.
 
3. You have wasted a bunch of time and money here for no good reason.
 
4. Water changes during a fishless cycle should only be done to restore crashed pH or to add carbonates for the bactera. If you are adding the correct ammonia amounts at the proper times, you can not overdose either ammonia or nitrite. And no water changes should be needed for these things unless one accidentally overdoses ammonia.
 
5. Using an ammonia detoxifier will cause you to get inaccurate and/or false ammonia test readings. Ammonia removing media will deprive the bacteria of ammonia by removing it. Any ammonia detoxifier will retard a cycle and this includes Prime despite their claims to the contrary. Overdosing these things will for sure impede a cycle.

 

[dazzadub]

U failed to read properly. Tetra safe start with live bacteria has been added and you mention fishkess, again you haven't read fish are in the tank hence water changes.

Reading all the comments first may help

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The part about only doing water changes during a fishless cycle was meant to illustrate that changing water during a cycle should be minimized. Sorry I did not make that clear.
 
A fish in cycle is a balancing act. To get the cycle done in the shortest time means allowing ammonia and nitrite levels to be as high as possible. However, to keep the fish safe they should no be allowed to go too high or to persist for too long.
 
How toxic ammonia may be is not based on the level of total ammonia present, it is based on the amount of NH3 in that total ammonia. And that depends on your pH and water temperature. I ppm of total ammonia in an African cichlid tank with a pH of 8.5 is highly toxic. 2 ppm of total ammonia in an acid water tank with a pH of 6.5 is not seriously toxic at all and the fish can be exposed to this during a cycle and not suffer any adverse effect.
 
Nitrite is also toxic, but unlike ammonia it can be counteracted by the addition of chloride to the water. You can find chloride in plain old table salt. it doesn't take much salt to counteract nitrite by blocking it from entering the fish.
 
If one wants to attempt a fishless cycle this is the sort of information one should know before starting. And this is also why I normally will not assist people trying to do a fish in cycle. the knowledge and experience needed to pull it off are usually beyond the understanding new fish keepers have managed to accumulate.
 
In a fish in cycle, just like in a fishless cycle, one should be doing the fewest number of water changes possible. In order to do this. one needs to know exactly when to be doing them and when not to.
 
In regards to reading what is written and Safe Start this might help you a bit:

In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the food the bacteria require to live.

If you already have fish, and are having an ammonia issue, it is best to get the ammonia levels down to below 4.0. 4.0 and higher is just as toxic to TSS as it is to fish. While 2.0 -3.5 ppm ammonia may harm some of the TSS bacteria, it should still have some effect. You may want to do a second dose several days after adding the first one, if you are not seeing the results you want. Keep in mind, these are bacteria, not a chemical, so results are slow to see. Give the product at least 5-7 days.recommended to add the next size up bottle with already exisiting ammonia/fish in a tank...ex. 30-55g tank, use a bottle of TSS for a 75g tank

from http/www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitrogen-cycle/58116-q-tetra-tetra-safestart.html
 
Oh yes, here is something else I am thinking you might not know about either:

 
A: A Nessler based kit will not read ammonia properly if you are using Prime®... it will look "off scale", sort of a muddy brown (incidentally a Nessler kit will not work with any other products similar to Prime®). A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest: Ammonia™ kit... it uses a gas exchange sensor system which is not affected by the presence of Prime® or other similar products. It also has the added advantage that it can detect the more dangerous free ammonia and distinguish it from total ammonia (which is both the free and ionized forms of ammonia (the ionized form is not toxic)).

from http/www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.html
 
The API ammonia test kit uses Salycilate reagents.

 

[dazzadub]

I've used prime to do the water changes and as I've added in my last post the stability has been stopped and detox bag removed, no water changes for 3 days and will test again Sunday.

Levels on last test where around
Ammonia between 0-0.25
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 20ppm

Since that test I've left the tank to its self, removed and stopped adding things to reduce levels and allowing bacteria to do its job, and will test Sunday to see how it goes, you may have seen on other posts I have a new larger tank coming which will be done fishless.


May job on fish in cycle was to keep fish alive but also allow bacteria growth, and in the time I've had the 40 ltr running I've lost no fish due to water quality only a fighter I took in because of a leaking tank and he came looking half dead anyway, rest have done ok, and are growing in size.