0.25 Ppm, 5.0 Ppm, 160 Ppm.... Am I On Track?

Bigman

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Hi everyone...
 
Day 6 of Fish-less cycling, Ammonia 0.25 ppm, Nitrites 5.0 ppm, Nitrates 160.0 ppm.  Am I on track? Should I do a water change yet or wait?
 
For the last 2 days, Ammonia goes from 4.0 ppm (after I dose) to 0.25 ppm in 24 hours.
 
Tank starting to look yuk with brown algae...
 
Regards
Tony 
 
What is the nitrate of your tapwater?
 
If you are using the API tester, the nitrite chart only goes up to 5.0 and anything over that still shows as 5. So if that's the colour you are getting, your nitrite could be well over 5.0. Try retesting using a 50:50 mix of tank water and tap water. If the reading is then 2.5, you know the nitrite in the tank is 5.0. But if it is still 5.0, then your nitrite is well off the top of the scale.
 
Hi essjay,
 
Nitrate level of my tap water is >40 ppm <80 ppm but nearer the 40 I would say. I will check that with my water supplier, they should have those limits on their web site some where.....
 
Yes I am using an API Master test kit and I've re-done a Nitrite test on a 50/50 sample and yes it is still reading 5 ppm
 
Thanks for coming back to me
 
Tony
 
 
PS    Local Authority Records show nitrates at 30 ppm at nearest outlet to me....
 
If your ammonia is dropping, you are in the second stage, growing the nitrite eating bacteria. If you want to find out what your nitrite actually is, it will involve doing more dilutions - a 10:90 tank:tap dilution would give you a better idea. If you read post #35 here you'll see why I'm suggesting to find out what level your nitrite really is.
 
Nitrate is very difficult to test accurately with home testers so I wouldn't set too much store by that reading while you have high nitrite.
 
Hi essjay, Thanks for that and I understood post 35 too, so I will do a diluted nitrite test next time to see what the level truly is...
 
I don't know about you but I finding this 'hobby' quite fascinating :)  ....... and addictive.
 
Regards
Tony
 
If one needs to dilute tank water in order to get a "real" nitrite reading it should not be done with tap water. It should be done with either ro/di water or else with distilled water. Tap water often contains things that will affect the reading.
 
This test kit problem is one of the biggest issues when doing a fishless cycle. The max. level that nitrite should reach reads roughly 16.5 ppm on an API kit. Using one's tap to dilute a water sample will be an issue as one gets near that 16.5 level. A small amount of stuff in tap water can change the results. If it is changing them from 8 ppm to 9 ppm that isn't a problem. That same 1 ppm going from 16 to 17 is.
 
Next, when doing a dilution one needs to measure accurately. A measuring error of only .25 ml in each water sample doing a 50/50 test changes things by 5% or so. 5% of 16.5 = .82. Considering things start to stall at about 16.5, not much room for error. And then when you may be doing a 1-3 dilution the possibility for error starts to magnify greatly.
 
Once nitrite gets over 5 ppm on that API kit, only one thing really matters, not letting it cross above 16 ppm. It needs to stop rising and turn back down or the problems start. But the way to control nitrite is by controlling ammonia.
 
There is a little chemistry involved which may help to show this. If we put 1 ppm of ammonia into a tank as measured on an API kit, and if there were ammonia oxidizing bacteria but no nitrite oxidizers what happens to that ammonia? It becomes 2.8 ppm of nitrite on the API kit. So if you put in 4 ppm of ammonia, it will become 11.2 ppm of nitrite. Add another 4 ppm dose of ammonia and the foundation for creating 22+ ppm of nitrite is there. But that is an over simplification. The ammonia is not converted all in one shot, it takes a number of days during the start of a cycle. In addition, even with almost no nitrite eaters present to start, there will be be reproduction which accelerates with time. So even though we can see how much nitrite could result, it should always less than this due to the nitrite oxidizers reproducing along the way as the nitrite builds up.
 
The repeated addition of ammonia on a frequent basis can easily push nitrite levels out of control and kill a cycle. So we have two options. The harder one to handle is the diluted test method due to the things mentioned. The other approach is to lower the amount and frequency of ammonia dosing which heads off the problem before it can begin.
 
A great way to to avoid the problem entirely is to seed a tank with a good helping of bacteria from an established tank or by using one of the few good bacterial additives. Either gives a jump start to the nitrite oxidizing bacteria. In the absence of such a bacterial jump start, it is best not to exceed 3 ppm of ammonia and to use this somewhat sparingly. That way it simply doesn't matter if the nitrite kit can measure it since it should not be possible for it to become an issue.
 
Circling back to the OP's situation I advise you to stop adding ammonia and to watch nitrite until you know it is moving down. Not just a dribble down but a clear no-bones-about it drop. Once you see it under 10 ppm and dropping, you can add 1/4 of your original ammonia dosing amount every 3 days to keep the ammonia bacs happy. They will not starve. When you test and see two things: .25 ppm or less of ammonia and you clearly see the nitrite being under 1 ppm, dose 3/4 of the original ammonia amount, wait overnight and test- 0/0 means you are cycled. .25/0 would also likely indicate you are cycled but getting a false ammonia reading. To be sure I stated it clearly- the 1/4 and 3/4 amounts are based on what ever volume of ammonia you used in your very first addition to get the ammonia to 4 ppm.
 
At this stage, with no living things in the tank, the nitrate is not a big issue. However, if you do a water change you will not only bring the nitrate down, but you will also lower the nitrite which should get you cycled faster from where you are now.
 
Hello TwoTankAmin,  Wow, what a clear and easy to understand post, thank you.
 
I guess that's why the 4-5 ppm Ammonia dosage as stated in the 'fishless' cycle instructions on this forum was amended (or is being amended) to say 3 ppm Ammonia, that way as you say there should be no exceeding of the 16.5 ppm Nitrites... makes sense.
 
At the moment I have no accurate way of measuring 1/4 or 3/4 of my original dose (0.5ml) of Ammonia, so I will look into that, but I think I will assume that my Nitrites are over 16.5 ppm at the moment and do a % water change, to be on the safe side.
 
What would you suggest 25% or more than that?
 
Regards
Tony
 
You would have thought though that someone would have marketed a more accurate test for Nitrites by now....
 
Once again thank you .
 
The nice thing about water changes in a tank devoid of fish is you can feel free to do it in a couple of steps. I think a 50% change is a good place to start. If you are over that 16+ number you will still read over 5 ppm and can do another change. To get a handle on the 1/4 and 3/4 amounts I suggest you use the site ammonia calculator. However, adjust the number you enter for the volume by multiplying your tank volume by .90 (this is to compensate for the glass and decor that subtracts from the actual published volume). Incidentally, this is another cause for overdosing ammonia. Folks over estimate the volume of water in the tank and this causes one also to over estimate the amount of ammonia to add.
 
Then when you put in the desired ppm, you can either use 4 and do the math or else do it twice- once at 1 ppm and once at 3 ppm. this should get you pretty close to the amounts to use.
 
Bigman said:
Hello TwoTankAmin,  Wow, what a clear and easy to understand post, thank you.
 
I guess that's why the 4-5 ppm Ammonia dosage as stated in the 'fishless' cycle instructions on this forum was amended (or is being amended) to say 3 ppm Ammonia, that way as you say there should be no exceeding of the 16.5 ppm Nitrites... makes sense.
 
At the moment I have no accurate way of measuring 1/4 or 3/4 of my original dose (0.5ml) of Ammonia, so I will look into that, but I think I will assume that my Nitrites are over 16.5 ppm at the moment and do a % water change, to be on the safe side.
 
What would you suggest 25% or more than that?
 
Regards
Tony
 
You would have thought though that someone would have marketed a more accurate test for Nitrites by now....
 
Once again thank you .
 
You will want a plastic medicine syringe, like the ones sold for administering medicine to infants.  These work well for dosing meds and other things as well in the future, and they are fairly cheap.  In my opinion they are a necessary addition to the addicted fish keeper's cupboard. ;)
 

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