Very Sick Betta

I will try to make this story as short as I possibly can. We got a Red male betta, we call him Sparky, in February. He was in a tiny tank and so we opted to purchase a 5 gallon for him a month ago to keep him happy. We did not know about the nitrogen cycle at the time. He seemed sick after the 1st week or 2 so I took him out and put him in his tiny tank and cleaned out the 5 gallon tank and put him back in the 5 gallon tank with conditioners, stress coat, stress zyme, aquarium salt, and fed him 2-3 x's a day, blood worms, and flakes.

After another week or 2 he began staying at the bottom and rushing up for air. I bought water testing kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and ph. The ammonia was high, so I used ammolock and the ammonia level tested higher and the nitrite levels were in the .50-1.0 range. I brought Sparky to a local pet shop. The woman could not understand why the ammonia was high and at the time, neither could I, so she told me to completely change all the water again and to treat the water with Prime and Tetra Easy Balance with Nitraban. She also said to treat the fish with BettaRemedy Fix, which I did in his small tank for 7 days. He was much much better and was swimming around happy and content. I cleaned out the 5 gallon tank, used the Prime, and Tetra Easy Balance with Nitraban and aquarium salt dissolved for 5 gallons. I also put in stress coat and stress zyme and PH 7.0 for ph balance. I changed the old Whisper filter and put on a new AquaClear Power Filter Cycle Guard with BioMax. The filter sat high on the tank because it had only a cut out that would hold the old Whisper filter that came with the tank. So, the way the water poured into the tank, even on the lowest setting, like a waterfall from up high may have stressed out the Betta.

Once again, the ammonia levels started going up .25 to .50, so i started doing 30% water changes in an attempt to not allow the ammonia levels to sky rocket again. They stayed down at .25 to .50 daily. This went on for about 5 days and also during those days the ph kept going up so I kept putting in the PH 7.0 to bring it back down to normal. I have always had the tank heated and have kept the temp. between 76-82. I tested the water 2x's a day PH, Ammonia and Nitrite. Ph and ammonia at this point would go up, but the nitrite stayed down. On about the 4th day of doing these water changes, Sparky got sick again and became listless and would not even acknowledge his food in the water. He began staying at the top of the water, sort of floating listlessly, and seeming not to see anything. When I would approach the tank he used to swim over to me, but now, he didn't budge. I felt awful. I took him out yet again and put him in his tiny tank with dissolved aquarium salt, stress coat, ph 7.0 and started using the Betta Remedy Fix again. I have been using the Betta Remedy Fix now for 5 days and he has not eaten for the past 7 days. He hides now unlike the first time he was sick. He hides wherever he can, at the heater, at the thermometer, under the plant. When floating at the top he seems to lose balance and begins to tilt over. It seems as though there is no hope at this point and we are all so very upset and so heartbroken that we may lose our beautiful fish. We have become so so attached to him in the short time we have had him and would hate to lose him. We recently went out and bought him a 10 gallon tank and were going to purchase a couple of danios to help cycle the new tank and then place him in it with them.

I will put up a picture of him that I just took in the tiny medicated tank in the hopes that you may see something that we don't. If i should send in more pics please let me know.

Aww, sweet little guy. It sounds like he's had a tough time of it. At least he has a family that loves and cares about him during this hard time.
The first thing that popped into my head is "I wonder if the tank isn't cycled yet..." Have you since learned about the cycling process that helps your betta's tank stabilize and deal with ammonia and nitrite fluctuations?
One of my favorite threads on that topic is here.
The best way to establish a new filter in a tank is to use filter media from another tank that already has the beneficial bacteria you need growing in it. (You can also learn all about that in the link above.) Most of the things you can buy from your LFS (local fish store) that purport their ability to instantly cycle your tank are rubbish. The bacteria is very delicate and under the wrong conditions, will die in just a few days.

Exposure to high levels of ammonia can permanently damage a fish. Exposure to high levels of nitrite can reduce the ability for their blood to absorb oxygen.
Since you bought a new filter and changed your little trooper's tank after he started to perk up, he probably had to undergo the same cycling process again, which is VERY hard on him. Also, you have to be careful what medications you use, as some of them will kill off the beneficial bacteria that gobbles up that ammonia and nitrite. You really can't rely on store-bought cycling additives to establish the bacteria in your filter. You have to see it with your own eyes when you do ammonia/nitrite/nitrate readings to really know that you've achieved it.
If he's "losing balance" it sounds like he could have a swim bladder disorder, which can be caused by such things as overfeeding or a bacterial infection. Living in such stressful conditions parameters-wise can cause all sorts of health problems for your Betta, so it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is going on with him. As far as feeding goes, there have been people who had sick bettas who didn't eat for as long as your guy, but I wonder... Are you feeding him freeze-dried bloodworms, or frozen, thawed bloodworms?

Because it sounds like you're getting a lot of your information from your LFS, it should also be said that many employees, and even owners of pet/fish stores are misinformed, apathetic or just plain ignorant. It's a good idea to research anything before you take their advice- or anybody else's, for that matter. My first venture to a LFS, I had an employee tell me that I could just toss some fish in my new tank and "although I'd probably lose most of them", it would eventually "even out". The same person told me I could safely house 10-15 guppies in my 10g tank! These forums are filled with horror stories about LFS employees. While they may mean well, really you've got to do your own reading & researching and educate yourself on all the factors.

Some more good links:
www.bettatalk.com
http/www.bettatalk.com/betta_diseases.htm
www.aquariacentral.com
And of course, the pinned threads you'll find at the top of this forum are full of great information. Including a great thread on slowing down the filter flow in your aquarium.

I'd suggest doing water changes every day or every other day, as often as possible unless or until you can get your hands on some live filter media (maybe from a friend?). If your tank is still cycling, you've got to stay on top of water changes until you get some positive nitrate readings and your ammonia/nitrite readings level out, which would suggest your beneficial bacteria is beginning to colonize.

I hope some of our more senior members will be able to post and give you some good suggestions too. I'm by no means an expert, so I heartily encourage you to read, read, read and ask lots of questions!

Thank you for responding so quickly. No, the fish tank has not cycled yet. I changed the water in the entire tank before this last illness with our Betta. When I took him out of the tank about 5 days ago, I shut the filter off and there are no other fish in the tank. I have no friends that have fish so I have no way to get any beneficial bacteria from an established tank. We have the Betta in a tiny little 1/2 gallon tank right now with dissolved aquarium salt and stress coat, and Betta remedy Fix. He has not gotten any better with this fix. He just floats on the top listlessly and if I move something in the water, he darts quickly to another spot. He does not look very good at all. All I can think of is that he is stressed out completely because of all the fussing around in this tank. Or he may have a bacterial infection. I see nothing ese wrong with him. His scales look fine, his eyes look fine, his fins also look fine. It's sometimes hard to tell because he keeps hiding himself. I have been feeding him freeze dried bloodworms and Betta Flakes. I have his water temperature in the tiny 1/2 gallon tank at 80-82 degrees. I am afraid to change his water because I am still in the middle of using the Betta Remedy Fix and am supposed to use it for 7 straight days it says. Although, it has done nothing at all, he is still looks the same as the first day I used them. I don't know what to do for him because I can't diagnose any physical problems. I may not be seeing something on him. I am just at a loss right now. Here is another pic. I will try to take more at different angles. My camera and lighting are not the best.

Just a note again, in response to your question about what I was feeding him. He Had been eating freed dried bloodworms and betta flakes. That was before he got sick like this. He has not since eaten in 7 days. He will not even acknowledge the food when i put it in his small tank. He doesn't even move his eyes. It's like he is frozen still and sometimes he just floats on top of the water and then he seems to snap out of it and then swims to a hiding spot.

Now look this up for yourself before you jump to any conclusions, but I think I heard somewhere that freeze dried food hurts bettas. Not too sure, but ever since then I've fed mine SUN dried gammaru shrimp every morning and he's as happy as can be. He gets 3 pellets when I return from school, and fasts on sunday. He's in perfecto health, just lazy, as most bettas can be. If he appears to be in perfect health, it might just be that he's bored. If he livens up any time soon, place a small mirror by his tank twice a week for some bi-weekly excercise. He'll become a lot more active as he feels at any minute he has to defend his territory. And did you say the water ISN'T cycled? Get this wondeful little bottle of stuff from the LFS called jungle start right, and it instantly ages water and punches your filter media in the mouth with good bacteria included into the mix. He may just be bore, or he may have trouble absorbing O[sup]2[/sup] and if that's the case, you need to fix those levels dude!

Not a problem, I'm happy to throw in my 2c if I think it might help.

You might try tempting him with frozen bloodworms. Thawed in a bit of tank water, they're nigh-on irresistible.
I've read that the freeze dried type are not very nutritional (more like candy) and can cause some digestive problems. Although that being said, there are plenty of people who feed their bettas freeze dried bloodworm.

Aside from his fins looking a little clamped (may be because of the stress) and ragged in a couple of spots (if it was fin rot, the bettafix would help with that, I believe), like you I don't see anything obvious. His belly looks a little rounded (you can see some good example pics of overfed/properly fed bettas here.)
With a week of no food, that's a little surprising. If he does have a swim bladder disorder, that may be a symptom though. Or it could be internal parasites.

I understand your point about the medication. I'd keep checking the ammonia and nitrite levels just to be sure they don't get up again though and do a water change if they start to climb.
I recall a thread here on the forum with a list of members willing to ship mature filter media to members who need it- aha. Here it is. I don't know if there's anyone in your area, but it may be worth a look.

I'm serious, THAT'S ALL. That worked like a charm for mine.

I'm surprised you had success with the Jungle Start Right. I've heard nothing but bad things about all of those products, aside from Bio-Spira which needs to be refrigerated to keep the bacteria alive.

Thank you again for your reply. I really appreciate anyone's assistance in helping me try to figure this one out. I do not have the fish in his larger tank. Right now I have him in the small 1/2 gallon tank with the Betta Fix Remedy. All he does is listlessly float around the water without moving any of his fins. He stares blankly in the water as though he is in a trance or deep sleep. I cant explain it. He must be in pain somewhere and since I do not see anything outside his body, I can only assume that it is something internal. I just do not know what to treat him with. In this photo he is just floating in the water and if the water moves he floats with it. He will not eat a thing. I wish I knew what medication I could give him. I was going to use Methylene Blue, or Maracyn 2, or Tetracycline, but I don't know what he has and which to use. I am so stumped.

I've had success with it for as long as I've used it. And I've been using it since I was 5. It's the same bottle! The thing is, my house is cold all the time though, the 10 gal is heated, the other is regulated by an incandescent tank light. I keep it on all the time. I'd just spray and pray dude. Either that or look up the symptoms of internal disorders commonly found in bettas. The latter seems more efficient.

My best guess is that your poor fishie has ammonia poisoning and is suffering from stress like everyone has suggested. Bettas typically don't handle cycling all that well... (although some betta-keepers really know their stuff and can ease the transitions for the betta much better.) He was basically exposed to the beginnings of a cycle several times so it was inevitable he would not do well from that. I think your best bet is to keep him in very clean and conditioned water in a smaller tank and keep him there for now till your bigger tank is fully cycled... Prime (which also protects the slime coat) is an excellent water conditioner. I'm not sure if the poisoning has progressed to a point where it is irreversible... hopefully not!

I agree with what Phaedra said about LFS employees... they mean well... but I find that most don't really know what they're talking about (no offense to those that work at these stores and are knowledgable.) I had one tell me to just use "straight from the tap" water. No conditioners, etc...

With him in the 1/2 gallon hospital tank - you'll probably need to change the water daily, which may add to his stress by doing water changes so often - if there's any chance you can get a little bit bigger tank to keep him in while he recovers and your bigger tank cycles - the ammonia levels will remain more stable for longer. I also think exposure to the ammonia is worse than the stuff you're putting into the water to treat him. Clean water will probably help the most! Be sure, since you have water testing kits on hand, to check your water params daily in the hospital tank. You need to have the ammonia at ZERO all the time... little spikes in ammonia - and nitrites are not good.

Also you mentioned that the pH keeps going up - can you elaborate on that? What do you start at? What happens after? Does it go up and down? pH stability is more important than how low or high it is.

Freeze-dried foods are really not recommended by any serious fish enthusiasts I speak with... they do tend to constipate. But for some - they have not found this - but I don't like to take chances so I stay away from them. Frozen/thawed food like bloodworms, brine shrimp, daphnia (etc.) and a good, high quality pellet is best.

Since your betta is not eating anyway... I won't suggest fasting for a few days... but once he gets better... you may want to try some frozen/thawed and deshelled meat of a pea. Only a tiny bit once a week - to keep things moving.

As for cycling the bigger tank - you can do it one of several ways. You can cycle with other more hearty fish... and then add your betta (but you'll probably have to find a new home for the other fish since bettas typically don't get along with a lot of fish - unlesss you find some hearty AND compatible fish that you can keep afterwards).

You can also do a "fishless" cycle - using 100% pure ammonia. I did try this but it failed.

Using filter media from someone else's established/disease-free tank is a good option - but you say you don't know anyone who you could get some from.

The other option is to use this new stuff called BioSpira (and I'm in no way affiliated with the company who makes it.) It is the actual LIVE beneficial bacteria that converts the ammonia and nitrites into less toxic nitrate - (which you can get rid of through weekly partial water changes.) This stuff is a refrigerated product and will die if it sits out on a shelf... so it's not the same as the other cycling products you find on the shelves at your LFS, which are dead bacteria (that really don't come back to life - so it's a waste of money). BioSpira IS amazing stuff!! I am using it now... I'm into my second week of cycling and I have yet to see any ammonia, nitrite or even nitrate at this point. It cycles a tank within a week or two vs. the typical 4-6 weeks to cycle a tank without this without high spikes.

If you can't find it at your LFS... you may have to have it shipped to you. That's where it gets expensive. It's less than $20 at the store but shipping using overnight service with cold packs is $$. But it was well worth it to me (I had to order it being in Canada)! Just make sure that your well-meaning LFS employee doesn't try to sell you something on the shelf and say it's the same thing. There is only ONE product like this... it is made by Marineland. I think there is a patent pending... but it is available in many LFS's... but there are no generic versions of this product.

[post="http/www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ML_biospira.asp"]Bio Spira[/post]
If the link doesn't work - try this: http/www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ML_biospira.asp

Good luck with your betta - I hope he gets better! He's at least in good, caring and loving hands!

Hi Maxsmom and thank you also for your response. I am sitting here now so upset with this poor little fish that I don't know what to do. If anyone would see me they would swear I was nuts for acting this way, but I look at him and feel just terrible that I can't do a thing to help him. He is just floating in the tiny tank listlessly. As though he is dying slowly and I can't help. I cannot see anything on him physically that would stand out and I could say it was this or that. And the BettaFix Remedy so far after 5 days has done nothing at all.

I was going to change his water, but it says with the BettaFix Remedy not to change the water while using it for 7 days straight, so I have not changed the water in the small tank yet. I do keep conditioned water on the side which i take tap water and put it into a gallon container and put conditioner in it until I need to use it. In fact, I keep 4 gallons like that on the side for him.


Oh No, I just tested his hospital tank water and the ammonia is at 2.0 and the ph is 7.4.

You've got to act fast with those ammonia spikes. Anything over .25 is bad. With it at 2, forget about what the meds say and do a water change. Now.

And I think we all understand your feelings of helplessness, frustration and sadness. I'm experiencing a sick fish and medicating my guppies in my 10g. I completely understand. *Supportive hugs* There's just nothing like seeing your little guys sick. It's the worst!

Kelnme... I sent you a message - please check your inbox.

I know it's very hard to see them suffer - you're doing everything you can. And you're not nuts for feeling the way you do... we all empathize with you!

Sending ((hugs)) your way... and good thoughts and prayers for Sparky!

Yes, I also agree... do the water change first... and then read my message...