Yet another stocking thread

[Roden]

Thanks! Given that I'm leaving out the neons, could I even push to 3 or 4 sparklers?

You could, but I’d suggest starting with original stock and watching for a few months to make sure everything is going well. If things do well, then add 1 or 2 more.

 

[Byron]

I concur with most of what has been posted so far, with a couple of caveats/corrections.

On the pygmy sparkling gourami, this species (Trichopsis pumila) needs a small group. And they should be acquired and added together if at all possible. Like all gourami, males are territorial and adding them together will allow the natural hierarchy to establish without much difficulty. Males will put on some lovely displays (especially if females are present, but still likely if not). The males make an audible clicking noise when they spar or challenge one another. Damage is not likely to occur, but having a group of five or six should guarantee this. If one is going to keep this species, it is worth having a group to observe their natural behaviours, and it is obviously kinder to the fish to be in a more natural surrounding. I see no problem with GH or pH here.

Cories...julii were mentioned, and pygmy. Either should work, the true julii (Corydoras julii) are fairly small fish. A group of 6-7 if C. julii, or if C. pygmaeus 8-10. The latter always fares better with more of them. Keep in mind their need for sand (we went into this in your other thread) and not too warm (75-76F/24-24.5C maximum). This is at the lowest end of the temp range for the sparkling gourami, but my one group seemed to do well in a warm tank (80F with Chocolate Gouramis) and another group at another time in a tank around 76-77F (24-25C). GH and pH are fine here too.

I have no experience with shrimp, but I have read of some species that are less likely to be eaten than others. My only comment is that all our tropical fish generally will readily eat crustaceans and they are frequently found in their respective habitats, so if the shrimp are not small enough to fit in the mouths--and the pygmy gourami has a very small mouth--they may work. I cannot see pygmy cories tackling shrimp unless newly hatched, but that is surmise.

 

[ellejay]

I concur with most of what has been posted so far, with a couple of caveats/corrections.

On the pygmy sparkling gourami, this species (Trichopsis pumila) needs a small group. And they should be acquired and added together if at all possible. Like all gourami, males are territorial and adding them together will allow the natural hierarchy to establish without much difficulty. Males will put on some lovely displays (especially if females are present, but still likely if not). The males make an audible clicking noise when they spar or challenge one another. Damage is not likely to occur, but having a group of five or six should guarantee this. If one is going to keep this species, it is worth having a group to observe their natural behaviours, and it is obviously kinder to the fish to be in a more natural surrounding. I see no problem with GH or pH here.

Cories...julii were mentioned, and pygmy. Either should work, the true julii (Corydoras julii) are fairly small fish. A group of 6-7 if C. julii, or if C. pygmaeus 8-10. The latter always fares better with more of them. Keep in mind their need for sand (we went into this in your other thread) and not too warm (75-76F/24-24.5C maximum). This is at the lowest end of the temp range for the sparkling gourami, but my one group seemed to do well in a warm tank (80F with Chocolate Gouramis) and another group at another time in a tank around 76-77F (24-25C). GH and pH are fine here too.

I have no experience with shrimp, but I have read of some species that are less likely to be eaten than others. My only comment is that all our tropical fish generally will readily eat crustaceans and they are frequently found in their respective habitats, so if the shrimp are not small enough to fit in the mouths--and the pygmy gourami has a very small mouth--they may work. I cannot see pygmy cories tackling shrimp unless newly hatched, but that is surmise.

Thanks, that's all really helpful. I think I will take my chances with the shrimp. I'm planning on having plenty of plants so there should be lots of hiding places. I've had pygmy corys in the past and never saw them go for shrimp, although the sparkling gouramis will be new for me. Is 5-6 going to be too many for the tank I have? Would 4 be a big enough group for them to behave naturally?

 

[Cichlid4life]

I don't have a testing kit for this, but according to my local water board it's "Slightly Hard, at 47mg/L as calcium". That any good?



Ha ha no its not a bio cube! Some sort of pets at home basic, think its LoveFish 64L Panoramic? Anyway its rectangular.

Very relieved to hear that the pleco is an option! Used to have a snowball and it was beautiful, was very sad to see it go when I broke down my tank.

I was under the impression that male bettas were good in a community aquarium as long as they weren't with any fin nippers? I could be mistaken, I will ask on the betta forum. I was after some sort of colourful stand-out fish since all the others will be small schooling fish (minus the pleco).

Thanks for the advice

if it was a biocube, i would get a little worried about the pygmies as they are quite small and they may get their tail stuck in the intake as the intake for the filter is big, the cherry shrimp would of also probably had the problem too.

 

[Cichlid4life]

Thanks, that's all really helpful. I think I will take my chances with the shrimp. I'm planning on having plenty of plants so there should be lots of hiding places. I've had pygmy corys in the past and never saw them go for shrimp, although the sparkling gouramis will be new for me. Is 5-6 going to be too many for the tank I have? Would 4 be a big enough group for them to behave naturally?

for the pygmy cories or for the gouramis? For the pygmy cories, about 8 or 9, while the gouramis, i would say about 4-5, but like the betta advice i gave, i am no gourami expert, i am an African cichlid, pleco, and corydoras expert.

 

[ellejay]

for the pygmy cories or for the gouramis? For the pygmy cories, about 8 or 9, while the gouramis, i would say about 4-5, but like the betta advice i gave, i am no gourami expert, i am an African cichlid, pleco, and corydoras expert.

I meant the gouramis, I'll be getting 8-10 pygmy corys.

And no, definitely not a biocube Ive got a Fluval U2, it actually seems quite gentle.

 

[Cichlid4life]

I meant the gouramis, I'll be getting 8-10 pygmy corys.

And no, definitely not a biocube Ive got a Fluval U2, it actually seems quite gentle.

i know that the tank is not a biocube, i was only saying the problems you would of had if it was a biocube.

 

[Byron]

Thanks, that's all really helpful. I think I will take my chances with the shrimp. I'm planning on having plenty of plants so there should be lots of hiding places. I've had pygmy corys in the past and never saw them go for shrimp, although the sparkling gouramis will be new for me. Is 5-6 going to be too many for the tank I have? Would 4 be a big enough group for them to behave naturally?

No, you want at least five. With any species where there is territory issues you need to ensure the group is sufficient to spread out any possible aggression. Angelfish for example should never be fewer than five (except for a bonded mated pair). And all gourami males are territorial. I had six the two times I kept this species, and that worked fine. Fry will occur too. Lots of floating plants and some fry will inevitably survive predation.

 

[Roden]

No, you want at least five. With any species where there is territory issues you need to ensure the group is sufficient to spread out any possible aggression. Angelfish for example should never be fewer than five (except for a bonded mated pair). And all gourami males are territorial. I had six the two times I kept this species, and that worked fine. Fry will occur too. Lots of floating plants and some fry will inevitably survive predation.

I disagree, particularly with the angelfish statement. Assuming you are speaking of scalare. Having 5 or more long term in most tanks would not go well, I imagine the angelfish breeders I know would also agree with this. The breeders(good breeders and regularly breed the angels) have also never mentioned this before and regularly advise having just one or a pair.

I have honestly never heard it be said angels should be kept in groups of at least 5 prior and know many keepers who keep angels singularly or paired with other fish and have not had issues. Wild angels are different matter.

The sparklers should do fine without having a group of 5-6, a pair would do fine. Granted there may be room for 5-6 in this tank, I wouldn’t add that many right away, particularly with the pygmies. I believe it would be better to start with 2, perhaps 3, and see how that goes. If it goes well then consider adding 2 more, but I wouldn’t do them all at once.

 

[Byron]

I disagree, particularly with the angelfish statement. Assuming you are speaking of scalare. Having 5 or more long term in most tanks would not go well, I imagine the angelfish breeders I know would also agree with this. The breeders(good breeders and regularly breed the angels) have also never mentioned this before and regularly advise having just one or a pair.

I have honestly never heard it be said angels should be kept in groups of at least 5 prior and know many keepers who keep angels singularly or paired with other fish and have not had issues. Wild angels are different matter.

The sparklers should do fine without having a group of 5-6, a pair would do fine. Granted there may be room for 5-6 in this tank, I wouldn’t add that many right away, particularly with the pygmies. I believe it would be better to start with 2, perhaps 3, and see how that goes. If it goes well then consider adding 2 more, but I wouldn’t do them all at once.

We may disagree, but science is against you on the angelfish. As you've asked, I will explain.

Having a group of angelfish with two, three or four fish is asking for trouble. This is a shoaling species, and a group will develop an hierarchy. The tank size factors into this obviously, and individual fish can always act outside the norm for the species. But it is always better to know the species behaviours and provide a natural setting rather than attempting to force the fish into what is for them a totally artificial setting. The stress this can cause usually means harassed fish which means dead fish with the dominant surviving. A group of five has been proven to avoid this problem, in most cases. There was a scientific study a couple years ago that determined fewer than five angelfish always (in the study) cause increased aggression in all the angelfish, leading to problems.

Now, I did mention the exception of a bonded pair previously. That is a very different thing. But the pair must accept each other and bond. The best way to achieve this is by letting them bond from within a group.

As for single angelfish, yes, that can work. But I am not an aquarist that recommends acting contrary to nature, and forcing a shoaling fish into this situation is not the best care. But it can work.

As for the sparkling gourami, if you can tell male/female from the group of immature fish in a store tank where they are obviously under stress to begin with, fine. But this is not at all easy. The group does work best with this species; adding more later is certainly not advisable. With a small group initially you get natural behaviours so they are more interesting, and they will be healthier. Providing what fish expect is always advisable, as Dr. Loiselle mentions in the green citation in my signature block.

I'm adding a link to a video demoinstrating the ideal angelfish aquarium because it provides what the fish "expect" as this is programmed into their DNA and we are not going to be successful going against it. You will notice their interactive behaviours; without a group this would end in dead fish.

 

[Roden]

We may disagree, but science is against you on the angelfish. As you've asked, I will explain.

Having a group of angelfish with two, three or four fish is asking for trouble. This is a shoaling species, and a group will develop an hierarchy. The tank size factors into this obviously, and individual fish can always act outside the norm for the species. But it is always better to know the species behaviours and provide a natural setting rather than attempting to force the fish into what is for them a totally artificial setting. The stress this can cause usually means harassed fish which means dead fish with the dominant surviving. A group of five has been proven to avoid this problem, in most cases. There was a scientific study a couple years ago that determined fewer than five angelfish always (in the study) cause increased aggression in all the angelfish, leading to problems.

Now, I did mention the exception of a bonded pair previously. That is a very different thing. But the pair must accept each other and bond. The best way to achieve this is by letting them bond from within a group.

As for single angelfish, yes, that can work. But I am not an aquarist that recommends acting contrary to nature, and forcing a shoaling fish into this situation is not the best care. But it can work.

As for the sparkling gourami, if you can tell male/female from the group of immature fish in a store tank where they are obviously under stress to begin with, fine. But this is not at all easy. The group does work best with this species; adding more later is certainly not advisable. With a small group initially you get natural behaviours so they are more interesting, and they will be healthier. Providing what fish expect is always advisable, as Dr. Loiselle mentions in the green citation in my signature block.

I wasn’t saying you didn’t mention the pairs, I was meaning to say both pairs and singles do fine in a tank alone. Sorry if it came off as me ignoring what you mentioned in that aspect.

I do agree that having a group(preferable young adults) and allowing pairs to form is likely the best way to get pairs as it is a bit more natural, but afterwords they form, like most cichlids, it’s typically best to remove them and allow them to breed in other tanks.

Having 5 just doesn’t seem a good idea IMO, lest it’s a large tank. Particularly if you manage to get two pairs and have a single left out. This typically leads to bullying of the single.

I’ll still look into what you are saying some and perhaps my opinion will change, but in general I believe a pair of single would be better and simpler than a group.

As for the sparklers, there’s several ways to get a pair. You don’t necessarily need to get them at the store, there’s breeders who I’m certain you can get in contact with and request a female and male. I honestly don’t see the issue of adding more to a group later on, yes the hierarchy will be messed up and will need to be reastablished for a week or so, but this is the same with most species and it typically calms down quickly.

Anyway, I don’t want to keep going off topic here and derail the thread to much. I’ll still look into the angels though.

 

[Cichlid4life]

We may disagree, but science is against you on the angelfish. As you've asked, I will explain.

Having a group of angelfish with two, three or four fish is asking for trouble. This is a shoaling species, and a group will develop an hierarchy. The tank size factors into this obviously, and individual fish can always act outside the norm for the species. But it is always better to know the species behaviours and provide a natural setting rather than attempting to force the fish into what is for them a totally artificial setting. The stress this can cause usually means harassed fish which means dead fish with the dominant surviving. A group of five has been proven to avoid this problem, in most cases. There was a scientific study a couple years ago that determined fewer than five angelfish always (in the study) cause increased aggression in all the angelfish, leading to problems.

Now, I did mention the exception of a bonded pair previously. That is a very different thing. But the pair must accept each other and bond. The best way to achieve this is by letting them bond from within a group.

As for single angelfish, yes, that can work. But I am not an aquarist that recommends acting contrary to nature, and forcing a shoaling fish into this situation is not the best care. But it can work.

As for the sparkling gourami, if you can tell male/female from the group of immature fish in a store tank where they are obviously under stress to begin with, fine. But this is not at all easy. The group does work best with this species; adding more later is certainly not advisable. With a small group initially you get natural behaviours so they are more interesting, and they will be healthier. Providing what fish expect is always advisable, as Dr. Loiselle mentions in the green citation in my signature block.

I'm adding a link to a video demoinstrating the ideal angelfish aquarium because it provides what the fish "expect" as this is programmed into their DNA and we are not going to be successful going against it. You will notice their interactive behaviours; without a group this would end in dead fish.

I have angel fish, and they were in a small group of about 4 or 5, then i went to a fish auction, i ended up with three more, at first aggression happened, like uasual, to tell the new guys who is boss, then a week later, aggression eased off, then about two weeks later, one of the new guys tried to breed with one i already had (the eggs disappear mysteriously, and i don't care much because if i did, i would soon have 13 tanks full of angel fish fry, which the wife does not approve of), and after an other week, an other angel fish from the auction tried with a different female. Now i have had three batches of eggs (which none of have made it), and other than protective parents, they are pretty peaceful. I have to agree with @Roden on this debate about angel fish in larger or smaller numbers, partly because if you had three angel fish, one is going to be the aggressive male, one is going to be the weakest one that both of the other are always chasing, and the last one is chased by the big male sometimes, but mostly chases to smaller one. This is a very likely scenario with a mix of males and females in a trio, and the smallest may even become so stressed that it may get sick or whatnot. With more angel fish (7 for example), the angel who is boss will chase the smallest one a lot less and chase the six others instead.

Now back on topic please, and you can create a thread about this if you want to.

 

[Byron]

It is not very sociable to criticize someone's post and then say you do not want further discussion here.

Second, you are actually agreeing with me--I did not suggest three angelfish, for exactly the reason you give.

Third, both you and Roden have taken things completely out of context and come to erroneous conclusions having nothing to do with my point about numbers of shoaling fish. Spawning angelfish never entered the topic until you raised it. I agree, this has gone off topic with post #24 and subsequently. No idea why as I did not raise it.

 

[Cichlid4life]

It is not very sociable to criticize someone's post and then say you do not want further discussion here.

Second, you are actually agreeing with me--I did not suggest three angelfish, for exactly the reason you give.

Third, both you and Roden have taken things completely out of context and come to erroneous conclusions having nothing to do with my point about numbers of shoaling fish. Spawning angelfish never entered the topic until you raised it. I agree, this has gone off topic with post #24 and subsequently. No idea why as I did not raise it.

I meant no criticism in my post, and the three angel fish factor, was only for example, to show that the smallest would get much more stressed in a trio than in a larger group. I was agreeing with @Roden suggesting that more than three angel fish is better, not less.

Okay, so do we have a general idea about the 5 gouramis or 3 gouramis and wait to how things go and then maybe add two (adding two more to the three gouramis)? The pygmies are going to be 8-10, the cherry shrimp I can't tell much on our decision on that one, and the sparklers are a yes, but how many?

 

[ellejay]

I meant no criticism in my post, and the three angel fish factor, was only for example, to show that the smallest would get much more stressed in a trio than in a larger group. I was agreeing with @Roden suggesting that more than three angel fish is better, not less.

Okay, so do we have a general idea about the 5 gouramis or 3 gouramis and wait to how things go and then maybe add two (adding two more to the three gouramis)? The pygmies are going to be 8-10, the cherry shrimp I can't tell much on our decision on that one, and the sparklers are a yes, but how many?

I'm going to bypass the angelfish discussion, it's way out of my league...

As for stocking, I don't think we reached a consensus on the gourami numbers. I may have to order the sparklers online depending on what I can find locally (the pygmy corys too for that matter). From a financial point of view it would be better to do it all at once as the postage is quite steep, but I want to do whats best and so will wait for advice on how much I can add at once first.

It was a yes on the shrimp, with plenty of hiding places. I'm planning on planting the tank, leaving open sand space for the corys, and some floating plants for the sparklers.

Just to allay any concerns about ordering fish online - I've ordered several times from the same supplier (kesgrave tropicals) and never had any problems. I've already checked and they have both species in stock.