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Turtles and fish

Discussion in 'Amphibians & Aquatic Reptiles' started by emg., Oct 9, 2018.

  1. emg.

    emg. New Member

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    Your advice for prevention is really good, and not reactive action. I will try to do something about it, do you suggest any good book on these fish, these are actually south american cichlids, the fish seller told me. He had both african and south american in different sections. Only thing.he suggested that these fish can sustain high on water

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  2. Byron

    Byron Member

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    Responding to your last two posts.

    The cichlids in the photos are African rift lake species. These fish need moderately hard or harder water (the GH which is general or total hardness, primarily a measure of dissolved calcium and magnesium) with a basic pH (pH above 7.0 which is neutral, so up around 8 would be best). Water parameters are critical for fish because of their physiology; water is continually being assimilated by osmosis, entering the bloodstream and internal organs. Each species of freshwater fish has evolved over thousands of years to function best in very specific environmental conditions which includes water parameters as well as the habitat and other species. In the case of hard water fish like these cichlids, they must have these minerals in the water or their metabolism will not function properly. This adds more stress, and stress is the direct cause of about 95% of all fish disease issues.

    Rift lake species also have other necessities. They need a fair number of them, not three or four or five, but a tank full. Some writers refer to "overstocking," though that can be misunderstood. But the point is that they are a very unique group of fish with very different needs from any other freshwater group.

    In post #16 you write "Only thing.he suggested that these fish can sustain high on water." I've no idea what this means, perhaps you could explain.

    most articles just mention on levels for turtle, ammonia levels nitrates and nitrites, which overall is the same byology for fish from what i undrstand, expcept for some pointers that they require individual and different number.

    I know how ammonia, nitrite and nitrate affects fish, but that is because fish are assimilating the water with everything in it, and all three of these are very toxic to fish. Ammonia and nitrite can kill them rapidly, nitrate over time will weaken them significantly and lead to death. I cannot see this being the case with turtles.

    Ive seen some youtubers have both cichlids and turtles which im guessing their water chemistry is.more to accomodate the cichlids but they seemed healthy and happy, maybe is that they are adult so they can adapt better not to sure ?

    We should never accept anything we see online as factual, accurate, advisable...unless we know first hand the source. Anyone can post videos, anyone can set up a site as "expert," and promote misleading inaccurate information. Know the source, always. There are reliable sites run by ichthyologists and/or very experienced hobbyists whose reputations are established.

    Second point here, is that again it is usually impossible to assess impacts externally. We have to rely on the advice of professionals. Fish are very much more difficult to diagnose. Impossible for most of us in many cases. This is the value of research from reliable sources, so we can avoid the errors and have healthy "happy" fish. Take nitrate as an example: ammonia and nitrite kill fish quite rapidly, but nitrate does not; the fish slowly weakens (this is not observable in most cases) until it dies, prematurely; necropsy would usually reveal nothing, but we know that it was the effect of nitrate over time that weakened the fish to the stage where it simply could not carry on with life. Often other diseases take hold because of this weakness, so it is easy to assume it was "X" or "Y" that did the fish in, when in fact it was nitrate. Just one example.

    Adaptation is a word bandied about in the hobby but usually misunderstood. A species that has been programmed to function in a very specific environment is not going to "adapt" either rapidly or significantly, depending upon the relevant aspects. These basic needs are in the species DNA and only change over time with evolution of the species. It is also not surprising that many of the species that have been commercially raised for so many years now are showing considerable weakness in the genetic make-up. We do not know better than nature, and it is time we started accepting this fact of life.
     
  3. finfayce

    finfayce New Member

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  4. finfayce

    finfayce New Member

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    hi
    i have 2 red eared sliders. they are 6 years old. went from size of a quarter to bigger than my hand. i have found in addition to absolutely needing basking places- i have a daytime and night time basking bulbs on timers. my biggest problem was keeping the water clean. i removed substrate and i use resin platforms- one one top of other hand in place with a minimum of large clean fresh water rocks on each end of the basking platforms. and i bought a canister filter outside the tank. that filter and frequent water changes seem to be keeping water fresh. i also use turtle sludge remover liquid. living in a very small town i only have a petco “fish guy” to answer my questions. he advised using only water additives made for turtles and for my platy fish in a separate aquarium only water additives for aquarium fish. i trust his word that turtles and fish have different needs. enjoy your turtle friends! it should say held in place not hand in place-
     
    #19 finfayce, Oct 11, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  5. emg.

    emg. New Member

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    Hi, hey sounds like a nice setup decorative items are so great tho also substrate is really nice looking. I would say you should get your substrate back even if you have to empty your tank 80% of water and clean out the whole substrate with the remaining 20%. I have 3 RES and 1 map in my tank imagibe that, theyre still juvenile and not full grown so its still okay. But soon I will need to move them. I also have 5 cichlids and 3 plecos in there, the water still clear and filters are working already did a water change, havent checked chemistry yet. Ive had the tank for only a month now, im a newbee as well. [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

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  6. emg.

    emg. New Member

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    Hey thanks for your reply, was busy yesterday so couldnt answer. Thats a really good information you gave me, i dont know much about any of this and what you told me is exactly what ive been trying to understand more, i havent really taken my notes but you mention nitrite and ammonia can kill a fish rapidly, my fish have been in there with the turtles for 2 weeks now, and are still very active and feed like crazy when i throw food in, which leads to the other example you gave me that nitrates weakens them overtime, that may be a problem for me. I know that the ceramic rings on bio balls in the filters are what kills the ammonia by having good bacteria feed on the ammonia convering them to nitrite and nitrite converts to nitrates, and ive read that plants consume nitrates so im planning to research which plants can thrive in high on water and wont harm my fish and trutles, my tanks being established for a month now ive done 1 50% change and will do a 75% change tomorrow take out everything wash is with tank water and a clean sponge clean the whold tank and put everything back. Altough ive still not.noticed any algae at all in the rocks or the glass, is that good or bad ?

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  7. emg.

    emg. New Member

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    Sorry, the other post and this post, i mean to say "high on ph levels" lol and also its true what youve mention. That adaptation has only been succesful through evolution and many years of thriving in a natural habitat. Some fish do slowly adapt to certain aquariums but thats when only the aquarium is in under constant control of chemicals by the owner, even so the fish will still experience some sort of stress i think. Unlike mine, not cycled brand new and im not experienced is just luck if they survive, i hope they will. Im trying to do as much as i can to keep the water in check, for my big water change im planing to do a 25% water change, then clean my canister filter, re-plug in the filter, do another 20% change, run the filter again let it fill up, then do the rest of 50% will thay help in any way to releive sudden water changes for.my fish since the water will be cleaner now but will still have some level of what it needs? Just a tought, or its no point

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  8. emg.

    emg. New Member

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    These are my turtles now :)[​IMG]

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  9. Byron

    Byron Member

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    I am not sure I understand what you are actually saying here, so will explain something that may help.

    Fish adaptation to different water parameters than those their physiology is intended/designed for is not "adapting to certain aquariums." Many fish will live very well in an aquarium that provides what they "expect." But many fish will not adapt to water parameters that are not what they "need."

    Second, "chemicals" do not impact any of this, and only make things worse for all fish. I said earlier that water is continually entering fish via osmosis, and every substance we add to the tank water thus gets inside the fish. Only what is absolutely essential should ever be added to a tank with live fish. And these should be minimal, never more than what is necessary to do the job. Water conditioners for example. But there is no way to use chemicals to somehow improve the water for fish when it comes to adjusting that water somehow. It is possible to safely and effectively soften hard water or harden soft water, without chemicals but naturally, if the fish all require this adjustment. But it is complex and time consuming to be preparing specific water for a water change. It is always easier and safer to select fish suited to your source water.
     
    #24 Byron, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  10. emg.

    emg. New Member

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    Oh I know i understand that a little, i meant as in how fishes need to get acclamated to the tank water before they get put in so they can get used to the sudden change. I know the adaptation for a different environment is basically impossible. Ive been thinking maybe in the future if i stick with this hobby i want to do a tank with just plants so that i can keep water cycling for when i do a water change i can add cycled water more than just regular tap water but thats if i get really needy fish which i doubt but would be cool

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  11. Byron

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    This needs some explanation. Water cannot be "cycled" as we use the term in the hobby. We cycle a new aquarium, not the water.

    Cycling refers to the establishment of nitrifying bacteria that will take up ammonia (Nitrosomonas sp. bacteria) and other bacteria (Nitrospira sp.) that take up the nitrite produced by the oxidation of ammonia, and convert this to nitrate. This is the basic nitrification cycle, but it is only the beginning. There are other bacteria primarily residing in the substrate that will use nitrate; some produce oxygen while others return the nitrate to nitrogen gas which leaves the water and moves into the atmosphere. These various bacteria do not live in the water but on surfaces covered by water, in what are called biofilms.

    Once the tank is "cycled," it means the various bacteria are present sufficient to handle the amount of ammonia being produced at that time. I won't go further into this area of bacteria levels to avoid more detail, as there is something else I want to correct.

    Water changes should always be done with fresh water, using a conditioner to dechlorinate if that is needed. There really is no benefit to having a tank of plants and using that water except it will not have chlorine if it has sat for a day or more, though it might still have chloramine. Quite the opposite actually, as the plants may have removed useful nutrients for the fish, depending.

    Plants need nitrogen, and most aquatic species prefer this as ammonium (ammonia), not nitrate. This is why plants are so beneficially in any aquarium; their uptake of ammonia/ammonium is considerable, with the benefit of not producing nitrite so that is avoided. The previously-mentioned bacteria will still appear and establish, but it is the plants that will be the prime filtration for ammonia/ammonium produced by fish respiration and the breakdown of organics. Fast growing plants are particularly good at this, and nothing beats floating plants which are often called "ammonia sinks" for this reason.

    Water changes should be regular (once a week on the same day), substantial (no less than 50% of the tank, but 60-70% will be better), and use fresh water conditioned (dechlorinated). Grow some plants, even just floating, in the fish tank.
     
  12. emg.

    emg. New Member

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    Yea i understand what you mean, i need to do my research on the notrogen cycle amd how it can be managed naturally as i heard that plants also absorb alot of oxygen leaving the fish with less oxygen bit thats something i will research soon, all your tips are really spot.on and helpful so basically thats what i tought, so it would be useless since tue plants would have removed useful nutrients. The reason i ask, is i heard that a massive water change can have a bad effect on the fish such as temperature and basically the fresh water, would it.be useful to clean my canister completely, then refill, then do my 75% change and replug everything and use some of the water in the filter ?

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  13. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    When plants get light they use carbon dioxide and release oxygen. When it is dark, plants use oxygen and release carbon dioxide.

    In an aquarium with an airstone bubbling away, or some sort of surface turbulence, the water should have a reasonable amount of oxygen in it.

    The beneficial filter bacteria require oxygen to grow and thrive.

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    When plants get light and are growing during the day, they use nutrients like ammonia, nitrite, nitrate & phosphate from the water. Plants can use ammonia more easily than they can use nitrite or nitrate but they will use any source of nitrogen that is available (ammonia, nitrite or nitrate).

    If you have lots of plants growing in an aquarium, they can use most of the ammonia that is produced by fish food and waste and this can keep the levels lower. This in turn reduces the nitrite and nitrate levels.

    If there is no ammonia in the water the plants will use nitrite or nitrate if that is available.

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    Big water changes can adversely affect the fish if the new water has chlorine/ chloramine in or is significantly different in water chemistry (pH & GH), or there is a massive temperature difference. However, if the new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine and has a similar temperature and chemistry to the tank, then you can change 90% of the tank water and not affect the fish.

    If you have concerns about cleaning the filter, do it on a different day to the water changes.

    When you do clean the filter, wash the filter materials in a bucket of tank water. When they are clean wash them in a second bucket of tank water. Then put the filter material in the aquarium or a third bucket of tank water. Wash the filter case and motor under tap water and then set it back up. Let the filter fill with tank water and turn it back on.

    Turtle tanks use a biological filter the same as a fish tank, except they produce more waste compared to fish so a bigger filter is recommended. But general filter maintenance is done in the same way for fish or turtles.
     
  14. emg.

    emg. New Member

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    Yea thats what i heard durung the night plants use oxygen from the water. Thanks alot this is really.helpful information i will write this all down and put it to work in an orderly manner, good thing im planing to get some plants cause i know that 4 turtles can produce massive ammounts of ammonia that the filter can strggle to manage now i know.plants absorb all 3 of these aspects of bacteria which would be really beneficial to maintaining my water clean and healthy between water changes, i did a 25 change 2 days ago and but havent done my canister. Is it okay to reuse the poly film multiple times as long as its been thoroughly rinsed with tank water ? Ive seen some guides on youtube and mostly everyone has the same routine. But back to the water i think plants would be really helpful, im starting to think the turtles should be moved soon also space is to small for all 4

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  15. emg.

    emg. New Member

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    For filter im using a aqueon quiet flow 40 hang on back with bio sponge and poly filter and added some carbon to reduce my tanning, for my canister i have a aquatop cf400 uv with the regular 3 medias, also using carbon in there but its taking some time to treat tannings so far but thats what im have for filter the canister is for 125g tanks so almost half more power than my tank size. I also have 2 water pumps inside one on each opossite end to brake the surface of the water plus 1 airstone bit will add another one so i think oxygen is being circulated pretty well

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