Re-planting advice

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seangee

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I fear the time has come...
A few months ago I inadvertantly introduced duckweed into my community tank. I didn't worry about it as it is a blackwater setup with plenty of floating plants.

I have now decided to tackle this as the disruption to light and flow has caused an imbalance and my previously dormant BBA is beginning to thrive. I am also spending way to much time fishing the stuff out.

  1. Should I use high lighting and ferts in the quarantine tank (and probably Excel) to accelerate the growth of my new plants or should I keep the conditions as close to my tanks as possible? (concerned about shocking the plants when they move into the low maintenance tank.
  2. Is there any reason why I shouldn't use H2O2 to steralise the wood and hardware if the BBA doesn't die back by itself with the increased light and flow? I would do this outside of the tank and rinse everything before returning.
  3. The tank does have a lot of Vallis. If the BBA doesn't get under control as above would it be sufficient to just cut it all right back? That's what I am planning to do. I'll replace everything else that can't tolerate being dunked in an H202 solution.
(The BBA may also be influenced by the fact that over the last year my tank has gone from hard, alkaline water to soft, acidic water)
 
Should I use high lighting and ferts in the quarantine tank (and probably Excel) to accelerate the growth of my new plants or should I keep the conditions as close to my tanks as possible? (concerned about shocking the plants when they move into the low maintenance tank.

Keep conditions the same. Shock and related problems.

  • Is there any reason why I shouldn't use H2O2 to steralise the wood and hardware if the BBA doesn't die back by itself with the increased light and flow? I would do this outside of the tank and rinse everything before returning.
  • The tank does have a lot of Vallis. If the BBA doesn't get under control as above would it be sufficient to just cut it all right back? That's what I am planning to do. I'll replace everything else that can't tolerate being dunked in an H202 solution.

BBA is caused by a light/nutrient imbalance. Water flow is not a factor directly. Do not use any H2O2 on wood; liquids will be absorbed into the wood and may leech out over weeks and months, harming fish, bacteria, plants. The only way to deal with problem algae is via the balance. If you were to increase the light, you would likely make the algae even worse as the nutrients would not likely be sufficient to balance.

(The BBA may also be influenced by the fact that over the last year my tank has gone from hard, alkaline water to soft, acidic water)

I wouldn't think so, the reverse might be more likely from the minerals.
 
I fought BBA for a long time in my 55. Byron is right; if you don't deal with the underlying cause, it will come right back. OTOH, once that stuff is established, it will keep right on growing even if you take care of the imalance. It is seriously tough stuff! I came up with a nuclear option to get rid of it, if you're interested.

Duck weed is a pain. Some people love it, but I don't like how it gunks up everything. You do have to remove a lot of it so it doesn't completely take over. That is a good thing, though, because every time you scoop out a handful fo excess plant growth, you're scooping out excess nitrates! What other floaters to you have? Always looking for new ideas for my tanks. I'm partial to amazon frogbit and asian water grass...
 
You can control Duckweed by putting it in a breeding net in the tank. Alternatively make a loop out of clear plastic hose and join it together with a plastic joiner/ fitting. Tie the loop to a bit of string and attach the other end of the string to a suction cup on the glass.

The floating plants can stay inside the loop and the string will allow the loop to go up and down when you do water changes.
 
but I don't like how it gunks up everything. You do have to remove a lot of it so it doesn't completely take over. That is a good thing, though, because every time you scoop out a handful fo excess plant growth, you're scooping out excess nitrates! What other floaters to you have? Always looking for new ideas for my tanks. I'm partial to amazon frogbit and asian water grass...
Yeah its that gunking everything that's getting to me. The excess organics are probably also creating the right conditions for the BBA. I had Amazon Frogbit and Water Sprite as my other floaters They are gone now as disentangling them from the duckweed is a mugs game. Might try something different next time (Salvinia???)
I came up with a nuclear option to get rid of it, if you're interested.
I'm assuming that's NOT a non-destructive option. Unfortunately I don't have alternative accomodation for that many fish at this time of year.
Water flow is not a factor directly
The reason I suggested this is that is the only change recently. I changed my canister for one with half the flow rate on Christmas day. Its not a cycling issue as I currently have ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate <5ppm 6 days after my last water change. The BBA growth seems to have really accelerated since then. I have now added a small powerhead for circulation and to increase oxygenation. Oh and the temp dropped to 20C for 3 days as I had to replace the heater. It is now back up to 25C. I expect nitrates to go up in the short term as I have now cleared the surface (which had 90% coverage).

I'm not going to touch the substrate plants for a while as I suspect the filter won't immediately cope with going from heavily planted to unplanted. It will still take a few days to get rid of all the duckweed and that will give me a chance to monitor the BBA.

I have decided to use tissue culture for whatever plants I do decide to replace. That takes quarantine out of the equation but obviously I do need to get rid of the underlying cause of the BBA before I do that.
 
Morning, Seangee. I like your signature line. :) Painfully true.

Regarding one of your original questions: I like very high light in a plant QT tank, but otherwise everything the same as the destination tank.

Are you wanting to get rid of the duck weed? If so it can be done with good old fashioned elbow grease. It took probably a couple of weeks to get rid of mine. I very much prefer frogbit in my South America tank; it grows just as fast as duckweed and doesn't make a mess. I try to keep my floaters growing over about 1/3 of the surface, so the plants below can get some light. That means removing the excess, of course--I pull out about five giant handsfull from my 29g every week. That's a good thing--nitrates leaving the water! If you can put up with the duckweed it's a great nitrate sponge. But it does make a mess, and it doesn't play well with other plants.

My BBA was the worst in areas of current, too, but once it got established it was everywhere. The BBA was so bad that I couldn't get plants to grow, because any new growth immediately got covered with BBA. So if you have it really bad, I doubt that cutting back the val would help. Here's how I finally got rid of mine, copied and pasted from another aquarium forum. Here's the link if you want to see subsequent discussion. It can be done with fish in the tank. I called it "the nuclear option" because I did it as an act of desperation before giving up and getting out of the hobby.

Now, a few caveats about the following method: First, it will only work long-term if your tank is otherwise healthy and balanced. If your water parameters are off, or your light and nutrients are out of balance, or whatever, the BBA will come back. On the other hand, once this stuff takes hold, it simply doesn't die (IME) without drastic measures. Second, this is sort of the nuclear option. If your tank is a simple one that you can tear apart, it would be a lot easier to just remove the decorations and boil them or spray the with H2O2. If your tank is too densely planted and/or aquascaped to do that, read on. Finally, this technique is a combination of a lot of good advice I received on this forum, along with a bit of my own experimentation, so I don't get all the credit. But I will except royalty payments in the form of TWS gift cards, if you insist.

What you need:
A smallish spray bottle
A bottle of Flourish Excel
Enough water for an 80% + water change, temp equalized and conditioned
A way to get said water into your tank in a fairly slow, gradual manner.

What you do:
1. Figure out the dose of Excel needed to treat your tank, according to the instructions on the bottle. For my 55g tank, this was 5 to 6 caps full. Add this dose to your spray bottle.
2. Fill the bottle the rest of the way with tank water.
3. Drain the tank, leaving just enough water to keep the fish reasonably comfortable for couple hours. (2-3" did it for my critters--they didn't like it, but they were OK) You could remove the fish and drain the tank entirely, but in a fully 'scaped tank I find that this isn't practical.
4. Take the aforementioned spray bottle, and spray the living daylights out of everything in your tank. Really get in there and hit things from every possible angle, making sure you get undersides of leaves, shady spots, anywhere this crud might even THINK about growing.
5. Slowly refill your tank with temperature equalized, conditioned water. I use one of these cheap little filters off ebay and a piece of rubber tubing to pump the water back in over a period of an hour or two.
6. It might be a good idea to add an air stone for a week or so, since this will kill ALL the algae thus sprayed, and the decomposing algae can use up a lot of Oxygen.

Over the next several days, the BBA will turn gray or reddish, an indication that it has officially cashed in its chips. Any critters in your tank with the slightest interest in eating algae are going to have a field day.
7. Administer additional treatments as needed, a week apart. My tank, which had a very severe infestation, required two such treatments. Other than very small growths here and there, which I can live with, it has not come back.

Good luck. I hope this is helpful. Thomas
 
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Think I'll skip the nuclear option. Sounds like my BBA isn't nearly as bad as yours and if need be stripping the tank is an available option. Not really a fan of excel in fish tanks.

Think my estimate of a couple of days was very ambitious though. Going to try to rig up a home made surface skimmer over the weekend to help catch the stuff.
 
Yeah, I would never have bothered with all that if I hadn't had a very severe infestation. I hope you can get a handle on it. T
 
The reason I suggested this is that is the only change recently. I changed my canister for one with half the flow rate on Christmas day. Its not a cycling issue as I currently have ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate <5ppm 6 days after my last water change. The BBA growth seems to have really accelerated since then. I have now added a small powerhead for circulation and to increase oxygenation. Oh and the temp dropped to 20C for 3 days as I had to replace the heater. It is now back up to 25C. I expect nitrates to go up in the short term as I have now cleared the surface (which had 90% coverage).

My point about flow...there are those who insist that too little flow causes BBA but this is totally false. I have the small form of BBA (there are a couple basic forms) on the filter return where flow is strongest. But I have been able to increase BBA, decrease it, increase it and then decrease it again, over several weeks/months, simply by increasing or decreasing the Flourish Comprehensive Supplement. I have also increased/decreased BBA by the duration of the tank lighting, and related to this, the additional light intensity/duration in summer has affected it until I blocked the windows in the fish room. The point in all this is that BBA is caused by light/nutrients and nothing else, and once you have the balance for the aquarium it is no longer going to be problematic as you can fine tune the duration and fertilizer. And every aquarium can be different; I have BBA issues in some tanks but never in others, yet I have the same water, fertilizing, fish load, lighting.

I have lots of dead BBA on wood in my tanks, it looks rather nice and sometimes I pull it off but often not. There is no need to somehow remove all of it, you just need to find that balance.

Yeah its that gunking everything that's getting to me. The excess organics are probably also creating the right conditions for the BBA. I had Amazon Frogbit and Water Sprite as my other floaters They are gone now as disentangling them from the duckweed is a mugs game. Might try something different next time (Salvinia???)

Water Sprite is probably the best plant to combat problem algae because it is so "hungry" for nutrients, especially ammonia. Salvinia is nice, I have this in one tank, but it is not very substantial as a plant, rather more a larger version of duckweed. Duckweed I allow in the 10g pygmy cory spawning tank, and now and then a leaf will get into another tank during the water changes, and the following week I will spot a couple of plants. If you use a small net and fish these out during the W/C it is easy to keep it out of the tank.
 
Time for an update. I've just been away for 4 days so things have been allowed to settle without intervention for that time. Duckweed is gone. That just took time and patience - and I'll continue to be vigilant.

There is a lot of info on BBA if you search and much of it appears contradictory. So this is not a recipe but just what seems to be working for me (in the order I did them).
  • Cleared the surface of all floating plants and left the lights unchanged
  • No treatment
  • Added a nano powerhead (its a 180 litre tank)
  • Started adding recommended dosage of Flourish Complete a day after water change
  • Started adding half dosage of Flourish Complete 3 days later
  • Started clipping the worst leaves on the vals every day but still left plenty of BBA visible as did not want to get rid of all plant life.
  • Threw out the Java ferns which seemed beyond help
  • Added a dual line air pump - sponge filter on one line and air stone on the other. I am planning to lose the canister in favour of sponge filters anyway.
  • Put the powerhead onto a timer (4 on 4 off)
Plants are now growing faster than I am trimming them. I haven't seen any signs of BBA dying (i.e. changing colour) but there is less of it and its no longer spreading. The Anubius Nana now has more green than black. Today for the first time when I agitate the affected leaves the BBA is breaking off and floating upwards which allows me to catch it with a net. I assume this means it is actually dying because usually it won't let go.

Its too early to declare victory but the tank looks a whole lot better and seems to be heading in the right direction. FWIW I have always had BBA in both tanks, its just never been a problem. Guess I just got complacent over Christmas and never paid close enough attention. I never cleaned the substrate or filter because there was no need - and nitrates never went up. Fingers crossed.
 
I had a tough time with BBA some time ago now in my 60g after receiving an order of jungle val from the bay that seemed like a good deal. Once BBA takes hold, it can be very difficult to get rid of. (And I don't think my balance was really off). Some plants (like the vals) I just removed and discarded. Java ferns I pulled and sprayed with H202 to kill it. I have one fake hollow log that got the same treatment. Finally (and I really didn't want to) I dosed with Excel. Finally, I got rid of it!

Footnotes:

1) Duckweed is a blessing and a curse! I got some along with some other plants at our club auction. It reproduces like crazy and found it's way into most of my tanks. I periodically 'harvest' it and either toss it, or put it in the turtle pond as a supplemental food source.

2) Some time ago I added water sprite to my 60g. It grew like crazy. Then it just stopped growing/reproducing and portions turned brown. Bear in mind I was using the usual dose of Flourish Comprehensive following each weekly water change. I have found that I need to double or even triple the dose of Flourish in order to keep the water sprite happy. Now in the 37g grow out tank, it just grows and grows and grows with no added ferts, Go figure - live and learn,
 
Your experience (seangee) relayed in post #10 exactly bears out the advice I always give...imbalance of light/nutrients causes BBA and resolving the balance is the cure. That is exactly what you did, by finding the balance between your light (intensity and duration plays into this) and nutrients (fertilization). :good:
 
Some time ago I added water sprite to my 60g. It grew like crazy. Then it just stopped growing/reproducing and portions turned brown. Bear in mind I was using the usual dose of Flourish Comprehensive following each weekly water change. I have found that I need to double or even triple the dose of Flourish in order to keep the water sprite happy. Now in the 37g grow out tank, it just grows and grows and grows with no added ferts, Go figure - live and learn
I've never bothered to find out why but in one of my tanks water sprite grows like weeds and in the other exactly as you describe. That's the one with the BBA. Perhaps I should up my dosage even more and give it another go. I have plenty to spare in the nano :)
 
Great news, C&G! Part of the difficulty with BBA is that it isn't one organism; it's a group of related organisms. I currently have some BBA growing in my South America tank, but it's dark gray, growing in the current of the spray bar, and seems content to stay there. It's actually rather pretty. And it's an entirely different critter from the BBA I used to get in my 55g, which was bent on world domination and nearly impossible to get rid of.

I'm glad you've found solutions and are making progress. Feels good to solve a major problem, doesn't it?
 

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