PLEASE HELP - dont know whats going on!??

[jaarus]

I was bought a small tank and accessories by my fiance as a birthday present a week and a half ago. When I say small I mean small..its a 30L tank.

Thrilled with my gift - I ran out to the local fish shop and bought a heater to allow me to keep small tropicals rather than goldfish.

I got back and setup my tank - dechlorinated water etc...positioned everything and waited.....

I was told by the fish shop guy to leave my tank for a week running to allow the tank to settle and to notice any problems early on with any of my gear.

So yesterday afternoon (just over a week later) my Fiance and I went to the fish shop to by some fish. I told the guy what I had (tank size etc) and asked what type and how many should I get - my fiance loved the guppies, and the fish shop guy said we should start off with 4-6....... I queried this as read somewhere that it should be 1-2 fish to not put to heavy a strain on the tank - he was adament that 4 would be fine. So we took 2 blue-neons and 2 red-blondes.

Got em back left them floating in their bank in my tank to aclimatise, 40 mins later slowly let them out in to my tank. Careful not to mix the aquarium water with mine.

This is where things turned ugly.

The fish stayed at the top...literally gasping at the surface - looked odd but couldnt find a page about fish behaviour for an empty tank only ones which are full in which the noobs hide in rocks etc.
So an hour passed - we are panicking now..."what do we do, they really dont look well"..."I dont know what it is, lack of oxygen maybe, or ammonia, thats supposed to start first n the cycle"
I double checked everything was on etc

The confusion was caused mainly by the fact that the fish instantly didnt like my tank...

and so another hour passed until the fist fish died.
5 minutes later another one died.

the remaing two looked ok (both of the red/blondes) ..though still at the top only with just an occasional venture down to the bottom then quickly around the tank before swimming back to the surface.

It was getting late and I went to bed....hoping to see them in the morning swimming about.

I have just got up and the last two fish have died overnight.

I went into town this morning and bought a water testing kit to find out whats wrong with the tank water...as there must be something.

My results were as follows:
pH 7.5
Ammonia 0 - 0.6mg/l
Nitrite 1.6 mg/l
Nitrate 50 mg/l

What confuses me about these results which I double checked - is the high nitrite level...i was expecting a high ammonia level first as that what I have read starts the cycle?

I dont know what to do......do I buy more fish as my cycle may have started? I dont want to kill any through ignorance.
any help would be appreciated!

dont know if this info will help but...:
tank - 30 litre
internal filter - 90lph capacity
Heater -@26c
airstone
gravel
various plastic aquarium plants
small rocky cave

 

[SirMinion]

Crikey, Those poor little guys didn't last long! - and you were right, six is far too many for that tank.
Although the tank is uncycled, I think they died far to quickly for that to have been the problem, the symptoms you describe sound like oxygen deprivation (but you have an air-stone) and/or severe stress.

Is it a plastic tank? is it possible that it has leeched toxins into the water? This hapened to us once with a brand new small plastic tank we bought as a fry nursery. The plastic was leeching petrochemical toxins into the water which wiped out an entire generation of guppy fry and their mothers.

 

[sylvia]

It seems that you are familiar with the cycling process so I won't go over that though you may want to check the links in my signature for more info.

First of all, a 30 litre tank is approximately 7 gallons which is about large enough to hold 4 guppies (only) in total so you couldn't add more fish. If they are all male, you could add a couple more but lets just stick to this for now. Also, you were right in thinking that you should not have started off with 4 fish - 1-2 is much safer.

Next I should say that guppies aren't the hardiest of fish and not the best to cycle with. If you are looking for a hardy fish to cycle your tank with. get a male platy (male so he doesn't give birth...). The cycling process with fish takes about 6 weeks, if you fishless cycle, it's much quicker (check the links in my signature) and much safer and stress-free for the fish.

Now the problem I suspect you had is that the guppies were shocked and died after being added to your tank either because of a major change in pH (compared to that of the LFS) or because of the high nitrIte - or possibly both. I suggest you ask the LFS what their parameters are next time you go there and particularly their pH, if they are local, there shouldn't realy be much of a difference but if there is, you'll want to spend longer gradualy acclimating the new fish to your tak.

IMO, however, it is the high nitrIte that killed them. Have you tested your tap water and also tested de-chlorinated tap water? Do this as I suspect you have chloramines in your water. Chloramines are basically chlorine with ammonia. Unfortunately, a lot ofde-chlorinators only remove the chlorine, leaving the deadly ammonia. In a cycled tank, this doesn't matter as the ammonia is immediately converted to nitrIte and then to nitrAte. In your case, however, I think that when you added de-chlorinated water to your tank, you essentialy were adding ammonia as well. Over the next week, while you let the tank run, the cycling process actualy had already began so when you added the first fish, the nitrIte level was very high and they died of shock. There are two things you can do - one is fishless cycle, which is what I recommend you do - and only add fish once the cycling process is complete, or you can buy a de-chloraminator (a de-chlorinator that removes both chlorine and chloramines - it will say on the box) and cycle with one or two very hardy fish (not guppies, platies are your best bet).

You should buy a de-chlorinator that removes both chlorine and chloramines anyway though.

If you add fish to your tank and experience the same problem. Do lots of water changes and use the de-chloraminator instead of an ordinary de-chlorinator. Water changes should normaly reduce the harmful substances in the tank but, in your case, you need to first make sure the ammonia from the tap water isn't dangerous.

Good luck! Welcome to the forum and the wonderful world of fish keeping and feel free to ask questions when in doubt!

 

[jaarus]

Thanks for the replies...


The dechlorinator I used also removes chloramine so shouldnt have been that.

I tested my tap water (without dechorinator added though) just to see, and it was :

pH 7.5
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 5

I also rang the LFS and they sounded a little unsure (which was disconcerting) about his pH but then said 8.5 (?)

So in theory if I did a far slower acclimation period ( adding a little of my tank water to their bag over an hour or so, after the 30-40min temperature float ) then added 2 new hardy fish, should they be ok?

 

[LoachLover]

Really weird that they died that quick. Sounds like some kind of toxin was in the water.

 

[sylvia]

Am I right in thinking you have no fish left now? In that case, yes, in theory, a longer acclimation period for a couple of very hardy fish such as platies would work.

However, I still reccomend you do a fishless cycle for the sake of the fish.

Also, because your tap has nitrAtes, you should get a few fast-growing low-light live plants (such as elodea/anacharis or duckweed - but only get duckweed if you are prepaired to have it in your tank permanently - it's near impossible to get rid of (which is why I love it )) to remove these or you will end up with a possible algae bloom as your water changes wont be as effective at removing nitrAte (obviously) and you will end up having to do more frequent ones to keep nitrAte under 20ppm .

Just in case, what sort of ornaments and things do you have in the tank? Brightly colored artificial gravel or similar objects can release toxins into the water and you never answered Sir Minion's question of whether or not the tank is plastic... I personaly think it's more likely to have been shock from bad water quality or a major change in environment but if it is toxins, you need to work out the cause and try to fix it before you put in new fish.

 

[rdd1952]

I agree that your problems probably came from shock due to water quality/conditions, especially if the pH at the LFS was 8.5 and yours is 7.5. That is an enormous change. Also, you may need to look into a better filter. The general rule of thumb is that it needs to filter the water 5 times per hour and at 90 LPH, you are only getting 3 times. Even if you don't upgrade, make sure it is turned all the way up as most filters have a way to adjust them and it may not be giveing you the full 90 LPH.

The best way to acclimate fish is to do it over 45 minutes to an hour and adding small amounts of tank water to the bag incase there is a big difference in pH. When I get the fish home, I open the bag and put it in the tank to float. I also get a sample of water from the bag and from the tank and test the pH of both to see how much difference I have. I usually float it for about 10 minutes (I set a timer so I can keep up). After 10 minutes, I pour 15 to 20 oz of water from the tank into the bag and float another 8 to 10 minutes. I continue to do this every 8 to 10 minutes until the bag is pretty much so full it won't float any more.

All this will usually take about an hour but is worth the time to let them adjust a little more slowly to the pH and the temperature.I then let the fish swim out of the bag. Some people don't like putting the LFS water in the tank but it's such a small amount, I don't worry too much about it.

If you don't want to put the water in, pour them in a net and then release them. If you have catfish, be very careful with the net as they will get their spiney fin caught in the net and you will have to cut it. I speak from experience on that one. That's the main reason I just let them swim out now.

 

[jaarus]

Great thanks for all of the advice!

to answer a few unanswered questions:

>The tank is glass
>Ornaments and gravel are pretty standard stuff my fiance bought from the LFS - rinsed off before adding them

I will buy a live plant for my tank as recommended
I will wait until level lower off a bit before buying any more fish I think - dont want to kill them through impatience

thanks again!


Will keep you informed of any major developments (such as next fish surviving a night!)

 

[boozybears]

Sorry to hear about your crazy first experience with fish! Please don't give up!! You've been given excellent advice... I hope you try again and we'll be looking forward to your success stories next time!!

 

[sinistral]

Those are strange results for a new tank. I can't account for those numbers with what you've described (they look like readings from an already-cycled tank that's experiencing a minicycle)-- was it a used tank that your fiance purchased for you? Did you clean the tank with any household products before filling it with water? Otherwise we're left with the explanation that sylvia proposed about the source of ammonia being the chloramines. Only an unusually high level of chloramines would be able to jumpstart a cycle alone though.

Checking your tap water with dechlorinator added might be a good precaution.

I'd be very curious if you discover what caused those strange readings that you obtained after setting up the tank.

 

[Mr Miagi]

Did you add some of your tank water into the baggie? On reading your first post it sounded asthough you didnt. Did u?

 

[jaarus]

No the tank was new

Yes I floated the bag for 30-40 mins then added some water to their bag slowly
then eventually let them out.

I still had water it the bag - but how much of it was the original water i dont know....

I did a small water change last night - about 15-20%

I then ran more teststhis morning to see what had changed....(feel like Jonny Ball doing this!)

Tank water today:
pH 7.5
NitrAte 50-110
NitrIte 0.8-1.6
Ammonia 0


Also ran the same tests on my dechlorinated water

pH 7.5
NitrAte 0
NitrIte 0
Ammonia 0

So the dechlorinator (which does remove dechloramine as well) doesnt seem to add ammonia?
And my tansk levels have changed since yesterday - I wasnt expecting that.
It seems that NitrAte is increasing and NitrIte reducing...and that I believe is a good thing?

 

[jaarus]

thinking aloud here

What if the tank i bought the fish from was going through a mini cycle or whatever.

I then whilst adding the fish swap the water in the bag for the water in the tank and vice versa - during the slight problem of getting the fish out of the bag without mixing...I was a bit crap at that to be honest!


Could I not have simply added Nitrite and Nitrate diectly into my tank?

Could this not explain tthe results I am getting?

Your thoughts on how best to proceed?

 

[rdd1952]

The quantity of water you added from the LFS wouldn't have affected your tank water unless it was contaminated with a disease and even then it might not have had an effect. The amount is too small to cause a change in your water parameters. As for the mini cycle, water really doesn't affect the cycling process in that the bacteria are on the filter media or in the substrate. Only a very minute amount af good bacteria are actually water borne.

 

[jaarus]

ah ok - it was just a thought


I am bit lost now - what would you do if you were me? buy a couple of minnows/danios and add them VERY slowly to the water.

or leave it alone

if its leave it alone will that actually help?

as I say I am just lost now!