Oh Dear It Is Raining Cories In California

[jollysue]

Ok, that's fine that you don't like them. I do, and that is what counts in the long and the short run. This really wasn't a poll to see who liked the fish I bought. I am sharing pictures that others asked me to share after I posted in excitement that I was getting some new fish. Several thought it a convienient time to rain on my parade. The debate came as a response to a discussion of how they were bred. As one who loves a hot discussion, I welcomed and encouraged it. I have learned lots myself by it, and I would be surprised if no one else learned anything.

Other than your disapproval of my taste in fish, what point are you making, Boboboy, other than stating the obvious?

I did get a post from the breeder, BTW: he assured me that he in no way uses artifical means to induce breeding or mutations. The fish he breeds are bred exclusively by natural means and by selective breeding in his aquariums. He abhores the means being used by some more than I do.

I also want to know how the species has been ruined? My fish are not affecting the wild caught fish. Are the albinos distroying the C. aeneus species? How? Have my peppers in some way infected your peppers?

 

[raptorrex]

Ok, that's fine that you don't like them. I do, and that is what counts in the long and the short run. This really wasn't a poll to see who liked the fish I bought. I am sharing pictures that others asked me to share after I posted in excitement that I was getting some new fish. Several thought it a convienient time to rain on my parade. The debate came as a response to a discussion of how they were bred. As one who loves a hot discussion, I welcomed and encouraged it. I have learned lots myself by it, and I would be surprised if no one else learned anything.

Other than your disapproval of my taste in fish, what point are you making, Boboboy, other than stating the obvious?

I did get a post from the breeder, BTW: he assured me that he in no way uses artifical means to induce breeding or mutations. The fish he breeds are bred exclusively by natural means and by selective breeding in his aquariums. He abhores the means being used by some more than I do.

I also want to know how the species has been ruined? My fish are not affecting the wild caught fish. Are the albinos distroying the C. aeneus species? How?

lol sorry only the first part was aimed at you as you say its just i dont like them.
my point was like it or lump it, selective breeding is done. just because the practitioners do it with care, does not mean that the results are beneficial. just my opinion.

 

[jollysue]

But not all domesticated dogs are naked? And I can see how that would be a bonus for some, when I have to vacum and dust oodles of fur. Not all selectively bred "things" be it corn or fish are bad.

Albinos are selectively bred.

As Ian said there are fish species in the wild with long fins. I will post a pic when I get it up loaded of a fish with a red dorsal that reminds me of a long fin serpae Tetra. It is completely natural--not selectively bred. Does that make it Right or Wrong? Who Knows? Mother Nature I suppose.

BTW Thanks for the good humor!

And I appreciate the comments, because ultimately that is how we will get to look at this beast from all sides and see it with renewed understanding. I am--believe it or not.

 

[raptorrex]

But not all domesticated dogs are naked? And I can see how that would be a bonus for some, when I have to vacum and dust oodles of fur. Not all selectively bred "things" be it corn or fish are bad.

Albinos are selectively bred.

As Ian said there are fish species in the wild with long fins. I will post a pic when I get it up loaded of a fish with a red dorsal that reminds me of a long fin serpae Tetra. It is completely natural--not selectively bred. Does that make it Right or Wrong? Who Knows? Mother Nature I suppose.

BTW Thanks for the good humor!

And I appreciate the comments, because ultimately that is how we will get to look at this beast from all sides and see it with renewed understanding. I am--believe it or not.

looks like we disagree, but think the same way.

 

[Breeze7050]

Breeze isn't wrong, people are approaching genetic engineering with humans. They do do it partially when they match sperm donors and eggs donors, mix them in a dish and plant the fertilized egg in a womb: let alone the beginnings of real genetic manipulation.


Thanks Jolly for the stick up! Love all the pics!

14GTR - she is right, that is what I am talking about, but Im glad you got a good giggle out of it!

 

[jollysue]

I knew what you were talking about, Breeze. I thought it was a good point. Communication is about understanding each other not semantics, imo--and communication experts' opinion

 

[Gnatfish]

There is selective breeding going on every where - hell, people arer trying to do it with there own babies now!

I've read that over and over again...and it still reads selective breeding humans.

So lots of 14gtr14's post is actually correct imo.

I wasn't gonna post again but i couldnt resist

 

[Breeze7050]

Should've worded it better is all. im not saying 14gtr is wrong, I just meant something else is all! Should have been more specific!

 

[Gnatfish]

Should've worded it better is all. im not saying 14gtr is wrong, I just meant something else is all! Should have been more specific!

Yeah i get what you mean now

Btw, just for the record. If these Long Finned species have been selectively breed. As in no hormones, and just breeding for that characteristic. Then i see no problem in it. But if they've been messing with the genetics and blah blah then its kind off a different story.

 

[Coryman]

This is going round in circles.

These long finned Corys ARE engineered through the use of hormone induced spawnings, originally as I believe to force albinism and the long fins were a throw back. They have not been developed through selective or line breeding. I have had several debates with so-called fish breeders in the Czech Republic and as you would expect they all defend their use of hormones. There are those in Singapore that also use hormones as well as genetic modification and even injecting.

Jollysue your breeder is not actually selective breeding to create these fish, nor is he line breeding to fix the strain, he is just breeding and perpetuating what's there already. All these long straggly finned Corys emanated from the Czech Republic.

I know the Guppy fraternity have spent decades perfecting there tail types by selective and line breeding. For those that have used these terms, selective and Line breeding are not the same by the way. Selective breeding is to isolate fish with a certain trait and breed it with another having a similar trait with the intention of developing the trait further until the desired feature is acquired. Line breeding is the long drawn out and precise process of breeding a true line of fin/colour/body type whatever your particular quirk is. This involves having several parallel lines of breeding stock so that progressive generations do not deteriorate through in breeding.

Hopefully this will clear up any confusion regarding what is going on.

Ian

 

[jollysue]

Hi Coryman!

Thank you for the nice response and information. Of course you are correct, these discussions always do a lot of circling, lots of redundancy, but slowly the ideas and information gets reduced to its essence. This is what encarta says about line breeding and selective breeding:


line breeding
- form of inbreeding: the deliberate mating of closely related individuals in order to retain characteristics of a common ancestor

Selective breeding is apparantly a general term used to cover several methods to control breeding:

Selective Breeding
Breeding, selective control of mating in plants and animals to produce organisms that better serve human needs for food, work, sport, or aesthetics....
Selective Breeding article continues here

(This seems to me to include Breeze's use of terms specifically. There was nothing wrong generally in her use of terms Gnatfish you might like to look under the animal breeding heading at the "inbreeding" and "outbreeding.")

Now as to the breeder that I am getting the new fish from, this is an excerpt from the email he sent in answer to my direct question about his methods:

I like what I like as most do and try to understand and
give due to other's different taste whether it be
food, cars, music, etc. or heaven forbid tropical
fish.
Thirty some years ago Dr. Herbert R. Axelrod and a
few other old school collectors, breeders, authors/
co-authors of many tf books on collecting, study and
identification of tropical fish, friends/
acquaintances. We had many lively and informative
(for me at least) discussions on what they found on
their many collecting trips to South America....

All my fish (I don't have indepth breeding
info on Panda longfins yet) are developed from many
years of inbreeding for size, color, finnage, overall
look and strength of strain. I have attached pic of
one of my angel fish creations.
"I DO NOT - WILL NOT" and "NEVER HAVE" used anything
artificial (HORMONES etc) to enhance, mutate or change
the natural look of a fish. I believe those that do
should be "SHOT". Selected inbreeding does very well
for me, a lot of time and effort but I love a good
challenge.
I breed by eye not genetics which probably takes much
longer but I enjoy my fish. I have 126 tanks (3005gal
I just cut back to 80 tanks so I can change my third
section to a flo-thru system to hopefully have less
work and more fun.
I am a quasi-purist, I am more open and accepting of
other wants, desires, accomplishments.

I suppose the fish he sometimes finds and then breeds may have come to him from an unknown source and have come originally out of Czech or other breeding farms. This could happen to any of us who buys a fish from the lps and not a direct importer like Bryan. I only know one way around that, to breed only imported fish from a supplier like CoriesRUs. I'm sure Bryan will be pleased.

Of course, I have asked him to the forum, he has chosen just to watch and not participate. I haven't known him long, but I respect him as an honorable and honest man and have no reason to think he is lying to me. That seems to me to be especially reasonable as he came highly recommended to me from Inchworm as a man with very high standards and high quality fish. I assume that Inchworm has invited him too.

I am learning more and more about the subject from this discussion. I am also learning about the tropical fish community. The most interesting thing to us here I think is the facts surrounding the various methods to produce fish. I am also interested in the community and its politics. Positions are clarified. Facts are produced. Opinions clarified. It is a slow annoying to many process.

The thing that is sad to me is that I have no doubt we could all benefit from another fish hobbyist of so many years and so much experience. But because of attitudes he seems uncomfortable exposing himself to possibly rude treatment. It is our loss, I believe.

(My appologies, Mr. Breeder in the shadows, if I have exposed you to critisism unwittingly. I hope I have not done you more harm.)

Edit: Forgive me once again: I want to make clear that the long "straggly finned cories" are a purchase from a supplier of mine in Hawaii. At the time I was unaware of the issues. I did not ask about the heritage of those fish--other than that he optained them from a breeder friend of his in Hawwaii. I do nevertheless like them. I am though inclined to think that their quality will be less than the ones I get from this coming purchase --the ones bred by my breeder aquaintance.

 

[Gnatfish]

Thanks Cory for clearing that up, again.

To me both types of breeding sound similiar, but i was wrong to assume.

Selective Breeding
Breeding, selective control of mating in plants and animals to produce organisms that better serve human needs for food, work, sport, or aesthetics....
Selective Breeding article continues here

I don't see no article. That just seems to be about breeding in general not selective breeding, maybe thats the wrong link, i dunno.

But this topic has been discussed enough, and i think we have come to a clear answer

EDIT: I just saw your post about sarcastic smiles. ^ that wasnt one

 

[jollysue]

That's the right link. If you enter "selective breeding" in the search line, you get a page for Selective Breeding with the first sentence below the heading. Click on the that sentence and it takes you to the article. Also if you read the article carefully I think it is clear that it is about the development of Selective Breeding over human history to what it has become today.

 

[Gnatfish]

You have to sign up..

 

[jollysue]

OK I'll see what I can do. I guess I thought you could do it on my page. But I suppose I'm glad you can't!