New to the hobby! Help with decisions.

[dexsting]

Hi everyone. I've been all over the Internets, but sometimes just posting to see what real people respond helps the best (and also steer me clear of any bad information...bad information on the internet? No way...) Also went by a fish store, but want to make sure they're not trying to take advantage of my ignorance.

Thanks in advance to any and all help! I will definately take it to heart. This is a tank I'm getting for my work in my office, I have a SE corner cube, but a building across the street blocks most of the sunlight from the east and the south windows wouldn't bring direct sunlight to where I'm putting the tank.

1) Aquarium. The store recommended and seems good to get the Aqueon kit. I'm debating between the 20 gallon and 29 gallon.
20 Gallon seems cool with the contemporary top and such, but will need a heater added; also like the black background:
https://www.aqueon.com/products/aquarium-starter-kits/ascent-frameless-led-kits
29 Gallon seems like it'd be more forgiving to my newness.
https://www.aqueon.com/products/aquarium-starter-kits/rectangle-deluxe-led-kits

2a) Fish! The stars of the tank - I know a lot will depend on if I get a 20 or 29 gallon, but after a lot of thought, I think it'd be really nice to have a Blue Ram Chichlid and a Betta. I've seen things saying they get along fine with enough space and others say never do it. Thoughts?

2b) Supporting cast of the tank - I would love to add some shrimp, Kuhlii loaches, and maybe snails? Also a dwarf frog would be cool. Finally I know I'll need some schooling fish to help make the Ram Chichlid feel safer. Any suggestions? Tetras? Rasboas? Not really sure yet. I think I'd want to avoid any live-bearers as I don't want to worry about babies.

3) Sand? I think sand would be cool...any objections?

4) Plants - I'd like some live plants. Do I get those right away or wait until the aquarium cycles first?

I am VERY open to critism. I am new and very willing to learn.

 

[fluttermoth]

Welcome to the forum

Before we can recommend species of fish for you, we need to know the pH and hardness of your water; you can find those out on your supplier's website (do take note of actual numbers and the scale used, as there are a few differing ones).

Bettas and rams are a definite no no together; male bettas are best kept without any other fish, as even previously peaceful ones can suddenly become aggressive, and females need keeping in a large group.

Sand is the best substrate, especially if you want rams (who shift through the substrate with their mouths; their Latin name, Mikrogeophagus means 'small earth eater') or any type of catfish or loach.

You can add live plants at the beginning of a cycle.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Agreed we need to know what your local water is like before we can recommend specific fish. Some like hard water, some like soft water, some like it real acidic, some like it real alkaline. IDK if you're in the US or UK or what, but usually you can get on your water company's website or city's website and find that information out. Otherwise, you can get your tap water tested, either with your own test kit, or by taking a sample of your water to the pet store.

I will say African Dwarf Frogs and Kuhli Loaches are a bad mix. People have reported their dwarf frogs eating kuhli loaches, presumably mistaking them for worms. Also, unless you intend to hand feed your dwarf frogs, do not keep them with fish. If kept with fish, they will be outcompeted for food, since they're such slow eaters. I have one dwarf frog and one betta in a 10 gallon tank, and I have to tweezer feed my frog while simultaneously distracting my betta with his own food so he doesn't steal the frog's food.

As for tank size - bigger is always better. Get the biggest tank you can afford and reasonably have room for. I can't think of any fish that prefers less space.

 

[dexsting]

I'm from Milwaukee, WI...downtown...Milwaukee water is pretty top-notch from what I hear.

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Milwaukee water is pretty top-notch from what I hear.

Okay. I don't know what the water is like in Wisconsin, but we are asking that you get your exact water parameters because it's not a question of if the water is "good" or not. It's a matter of how soft or hard is the water? How alkaline or acidic is the water? For example, Washington (west coast) has really really soft, acidic water, with a pH around 5 or 6, which is great for fish like corydoras, but not so much for fish like cichlids. Where I live, in Missouri, my water is really hard and comes out of the tap with a pH of 8.0. So my water is better suited for cichlids than corydoras. I hope that helps.

 

[dexsting]

Ah, my bad. I just had heard Milwaukee water is good, IE no lead and well balanced or whatever. Milwaukee’s water quality makes for happy fish and tasty homebrew. We offer this information to those of you who use Milwaukee tap water for brewing beer and coffee and steeping tea, to fill aquariums, for photofinishing, cooking and baking -- every activity that requires consistently pure, high-quality water. The data reflect water quality monitoring results Jan. 1 – Dec. 31, 2017 as reported in the annual Consumer Confidence Report.

Parameter Median Value Range
Alkalinity 103 mg/L (as CaCO3) 97-116 mg/L
Calcium 34 mg/L 34-34 mg/L
Chlorine* 1.54 mg/L 1.30-1.84 mg/L
Conductivity 308 uS/cm 288-353 uS/cm
Fluoride 0.58 mg/L 0.09-0.73 mg/L
Hardness, total (as CaCO3) 135 mg/L 131-152 mg/L
Hardness 7.9 grains per gallon or 0.1 millimoles per liter
Iron 0.123 mg/L 0.119-0.126 ppm
Nitrate, as Nitrogen 0.33 mg/L 0.22-0.44 mg/L
pH 7.64 7.38-7.79
Potassium 1.4 mg/L 1.4-1.4 mg/L
Sodium 9.45 mg/L 9.30-9.60 mg/L

Total Dissolved Solids 179 mg/L 167-204 mg/L

 

[Essjay]

Parameter Median Value Range
Alkalinity 103 mg/L (as CaCO3) 97-116 mg/L
Hardness, total (as CaCO3) 135 mg/L 131-152 mg/L

These are the two figures you need.

Alkalinity is KH (water companies call it alkalinity, fish keepers call it KH)

Total hardness is the same as GH.
In fishkeeping, two units are used - ppm which is the same as mg/l CaCO3 and dH (or degrees). Fish profiles will use one or other of these units. Your hardness in these two units is:
97 to 116 ppm
5.4 to 6.5 dH

 

[Byron]

Welcome to TFF.

I agree with everything that has been posted up to this point. So from the fish mentioned, no Betta (unless a lone male). And frogs will be problematical. Your water is moderately soft, so stay with soft water fish species and most will manage from that aspect. Hard water species to avoid are all livebearers for example. The rasboras are soft water, as are most of the tetras, and many catfish.

I have both sizes of tank mentioned in my fish room, and I would recommend the 29 gallon. You will find it provides more options for an interesting aquarium; that additional six inches in length (30 inches length compared to 24 for 20g) makes a big difference.

Live plants depends upon the light, and I have no experience with LED so I will stay out of that. The light on the 29g sounds like it might be good, but without seeing it and the data I couldn't confirm. To make life simpler, since this is an office tank and you will not be there every day (presumably), going with a natural blackwater type of Amazon habitat is one option. Sand substrate; lots of wood as chunks representing logs and standing tree trunks, and branches; no plants in the substrate but floating plant species would be good.

Rams were mentioned. This is not an easy species. First, the common or blue ram, in any of its varieties, needs warmth, 80F minimum. Many other tropical fish find this too warm permanently (cory catfish for example). Given the tank dimensions and water, I would recommend groups of the smaller shoaling fish, such as rasboras and tetras. Cory catfish in a group for the substrate. I had something like this in one of my 29g tanks for a couple years before I moved the fish into the new 40g, see attached photo; this is representative of an Amazon blackwater habitat. There are plants in the substrate, some pygmy chain swords I culled from another tank so I stuck them in, and they grew sending out runners, but you could leave these out and just have the floating (which happens to be Brazilian Pennywort, a step plant, here). Dried leaves on thee sand is also realistic, and a good source of food for small fish.

 

[dexsting]

Thanks! Maybe I'll get some Rasboas to cycle the tank before adding anything else. Good color suggestions? I see harlequin mentioned often, but I'd like something different. Also any more unique fish would be fun if they work [I'm a unique guy]

Oh and I really like the looks of the Kihlli loach. They good during tank cycle too?

 

[Byron]

First on cycling...you do not want to be cycling an aquarium with fish present, the one exception being plants. If you get live plants that are fast growing, and floating plants are ideal for this and really essential in my view, once they are showing signs of growing it is safe to slowly add fish. But without plants, you must cycle the tank first before fish can safely be added. I can explain the plant cycling more if asked.

Rasbora...the common Harlequin (Trigonostigma heteromorpha) is a lovely peaceful fish, but there are two other species seen from time to time that are in my personal view even nicer. Trigonostigma espei --more data here: http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trigonostigma-espei/ and the even lovelier T. hengeli --data: http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/trigonostigma-hengeli/

These, like all rasbora, along with danios, barbs, tetras, pencilfish, hatchetfish, etc, are shoaling fish that live in large groups and need several individuals in the aquarium. Six is usually cited as minimum, but more will always be better for the fish, and with some species more are mandatory. These rasbora are best in at least seven, but I would aim for 9-10 of either species. Best not to mix these. This shoaling aspect will apply to cories and loaches.

Kuhlii loaches are not a favourite of mine, for no particular reason. They are nocturnal so dim lighting and lots of cover (they burrow in sand, and like to go under chunks of wood, in crevices and tunnels, etc) can help keep them out more during daylight. A group of 5-6 minimum. Cories would be good for the substrate level but not with loaches. Again no reason, but cories are best on their own with more of them, rather than trying to add fewer with other substrate fish. There are some oddball catfish that work well too, like the Whiptail Catfish Rineloricaria parva, just avoid the much larger "Royal" Whiptails.

All of my suggestions assume the 29g tank is selected.

 

[Essjay]

Please don't use fish to cycle the tank. They could well die and even if they survive they will be permanently damaged.

Either ask Byron for more details on plant cycling, or if you don't want live plants do a fishless cycle
http://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first.421488/

 

[dexsting]

Everything I've read says you need fish to cycle as they have the bacteria or whatever. And if you don't have fish cycling won't happen.

 

[Byron]

Everything I've read says you need fish to cycle as they have the bacteria or whatever. And if you don't have fish cycling won't happen.

No, you never subject fish to an non-cycled tank. Have a read of one of our cycling articles to learn the background. Essjay linked one in her post #11.

Very briefly, fish produce ammonia when they respirate, and it quickly accumulates and poisons them. But you can introduce ammonia without fish, and the various bacteria will still establish. The bacteria that use ammonia produce nitrite which is just as deadly, but another bacteria appear to use the nitrite.

Subjecting fish to this causes considerable problems, and it will kill them but even if it doesn't it permanently affects them.

I mentioned plants earlier; these need nitrogen, and aquatic plants prefer ammonia/ammonium as their source of nitrogen. So they will take up the ammonia, and the plus here is that they do not produce nitrite. But the various bacteria will still establish, only more slowly and without risk when fast-growing plants are present.

 

[dexsting]

Glad I went here for advice!

 

[dexsting]

OK, so I'll have some time to think after I start the cycling; but I'm going to go with the 20 gallon. 23.75" x 12.625" x 19.75".

Based on the advice, I'll avoid Betta/GBR combo, so how about GBR and Gourami (maybe a dwarf one)?

I keep finding mixed messages as to how many of GBR and Gourami I should keep; I don't want babies, so just Males...just 1 of each? 2 of each? 1 of one and 2 of another? Some other number? Or similar to Betta/GBR they shouldn't go together?

Thinking rest of tank, I still would want some Kuhli Loaches. Would any Cherry barbs or other barbs work to finish out the tank with a school? I may just end up getting some Danios?