New plants 'melting'?

[IndiaHawker]

Hi again! I've had my tank for maybe a month or so now - it came with two plants which were doing okay, and I bought a load more plants:

- Ambulia Aquatica
- Anubia Nana
- Java Moss
- Vallis Corkscrew
- Rotala Macranda
- Red Root Floater

At first they seemed to be doing great, for maybe a week or so - see my profile pic! However soon after I noticed bits appeared to be kind of rotting and 'melting' away - I assume this is what people are referring to when they say about plants melting. I remember someone mentioning something about new plants melting so is this normal and will they grow back to normal? I recently (like a few days ago) found some sort of aquatic caterpillar outbreak - fished out maybe 10-15 or so (I'm actually keeping them to see what they turn into hahah), been keeping an eye but haven't found any more in the last few days. Wondering if these could have been responsible for eating a lot of the plant matter and causing parts to rot away and leaves to just become detached and float up to the surface?

Recently got some fertilizer which I dosed for the first time yesterday, not sure how long to expect to wait for progress but I'm guessing not instant haha. My plants are so destroyed compared to the profile pic, vallis corkscrew has lost nearly all its leaves, as has rotala macranda - but with a little regrowth on top. Only plant which appears to be thriving is the anubia nana - grown a fair few leaves and looks healthy despite a few bite marks in one leaf!

When I next buy plants, what stuff should I buy to soak them in beforehand and prevent outbreaks from happening in future?

Please and thanks

 

[Colin_T]

The green bugs might be chewing bits off the plant leaves but are unlikely to be killing them.

New plants die because of sudden changes in temperature or water chemistry. eg: if the plants came from cold water and were put in warm water they might die, or shed leaves. If they came from alkaline water and were put in acid water they might die or shed leaves. And they die from lack of light. How big is the tank, how much light do you have on the tank and how long is the light on for?

This bit is for saltwater plants/ algae, if there is a change in salinity (salt levels) then marine plants/ algae die.

Corkscrew vallis suffers pretty badly when moved into water with a different pH and hardness.
Ambulia is fine and normally doesn't have any issues unless it is grown out of water. Then it sheds its terrestrial leaves and grows new aquatic leaves.
Rotala is the same as Ambulia and regularly grown out of water (because they grow faster out of water and have tougher stems so can be handled without doing as much damage). When put under water they shed their terrestrial leaves and grow new aquatic leaves.
Anubias has a rhizome that stores nutrients and they draw on the reserves to grow. Crytps and Aponogetons are the same.
I'm not familiar with the red root floater plant but images on dr googly show it to look like salvinia. Most floating plants require dry leaves and low humidity. If you have a coverglass on the tank they don't do well. And lots of surface turbulence (water splashing on leaves) will kill them too. Most floating plants come from ponds and there are usually temperature, water chemistry and light differences between the pond, shop tanks and your tank. The best floating plant for aquariums is Water Sprite (Ceratopteris thalictroies/ cornuta).

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It takes about 3-4 doses of fertiliser before you start to notice new growth. The first few doses are used by the plants to repair damage and develop roots. Then once they have built up their reserves, they start growing.

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There are several methods of treating plants before they go into the tank.
Remove any gravel/ soil from the roots and rinse well, then you can physically look at each plant and remove snails and other things from them.

Remove gravel and rinse well. Then put them in a container of bleach for a few minutes before rinsing well and soaking in a bucket of freshwater. Tip the water out, rinse the plants and refill the container with clean water. Do this 3 or 4 times over an hour. Then tip the water out, rinse again and put them in a bucket of water and double dose with dechlorinator. Stir it up and wait 30 minutes before rinsing again and adding to the tank.

Remove gravel and rinse well. Then put them in a bucket of water and double dose with copper sulphate. Let them sit in this solution for 5 minutes before taking them out and rinsing well. Then put them in a bucket of clean water and let them soak for an hour. Change the water and rinse the plants every 15 minutes during this 1 hour period. Then a final rinse before putting in the tank.

 

[seangee]

Hi again! I've had my tank fofr maybe a month or so now
When I next buy plants, what stuff should I buy to soak them in beforehand and prevent outbreaks from happening in future?

Your anubia and vals should recover - probably take 3 or 4 weeks. I don't keep any of the others so can't comment on those.
FWIW I have recently been buying plants that are guaranteed shrimp safe and where possible either from tissue culture or at least EU grown. Costs a bit more but you know they will be healthy and you can just drop them in if from a reputable source. The last plants I got were from proshrimp and aquariumgardens.co.uk and I was happy with both.

I've just had too many bad experiences with trying to do it cheaply via amazon or ebay.

 

[Byron]

We will need more data to be able to suggest options. Describe the light in detail. And which fertilizer are you now using? Also, what is the GH of your source water?

 

[IndiaHawker]

Thanks for the responses!

Don't know much about lighting myself but the light included with the tank is a 7500K LED - has an RGB option or white, and I usually always keep it on the brightest white setting. The fertilizer I'm now using is Seachem Flourish (and I made sure to underdose rather than overdose). I know the GH of the water in the tank (post-conditioning) is about 8dh, if you mean the tap water before conditioning I'm unsure but can test some if necessary and get back to you.

Getting frustrating as returned to my room tonight to find two more leaves floating on top - a vallis and I believe one of the long ones that came with the tank. They're not being uprooted; they're just falling off. I found one more caterpillar thing recently but been keeping a close eye and that's all I've seen for days. One plant (small one on the left that also came with tank) seems to have two new shoots, and some teeny shoots on the rotala macranda which haven't done much lately. I've attached some pictures of what it looked like a few weeks ago vs now:

Wondering if this could be to do with filter media although been using what it came with? I'm clueless about filter media but the filter apparently uses foam, carbon, and biomax - here's a link to the tank page: http://www.fluvalaquatics.com/ca/freshwater/aquariums/series/flex/

Seem to have lost a third harlequin rasbora today and don't know why. The rasboras were one of the only species that hadn't seemed to die off in their previous home, so now I'm taking every precaution possible I don't understand why they're the ones to be dying. I've been frequently water testing/changing, will do my next test tonight/tomorrow with my water change.

I now only have three which I'm aware isn't enough for a comfortable shoal. I don't intend to get more though, as I got them with the tank and I'm aware that a) the tank is on the overstocked side of things, and b) the water is harder than ideal for the fish it came with. But is this cruel of me to let them live out their days in a smaller number? I don't understand if this is what others do as surely with shoals there will always be some that die off sooner than others so numbers won't be maintained?

Please and thanks for all the help! Feeling a little disheartened by my lack of progress/the fact that my tank is basically disintegrating before my eyes.

 

[Colin_T]

The vallis looks like giant vallis and if so, that never does well in aquariums. It usually comes from cool water ponds and fails dismally in tropical aquariums. The rest of the plants look like they are being eaten, so I might have been wrong when I said the little bugs shouldn't harm them. But the Ambulia and Elodia? (on left) look like something is chewing the leaves off.

7500K globes should be fine. It has a bit more blue light than needed but shouldn't be an issue for plants.

How long is the light on for?
I would have the light on for 12 hours a day and see how they go over a couple of weeks. If you get heaps of algae reduce the time by an hour and see how it goes over the next week.

It's a possibility the plants came from cold water ponds and the sudden temperature change (to warm water) and the bugs are causing the problem.

If there are no more bugs in the tank, perhaps try getting plants from a different shop and see how they do. Try Ambulia, Elodia, narrow Vallis & Water Sprite (Ceratopteris thalictroides/ cornuta). They are 4 of the best aquarium plants and do well under most conditions.

You could also try a different fertiliser. I use Sera Florena, it's a liquid iron based fertiliser and seems to work well. It might help or might not.

 

[Byron]

I have had plants do exactly what the photos show. This is a light/nutrient issue, as is always the case, believe me.

GH at 8 dGH is fine. If you had very soft water like |I have, zero GH, hard mineral supplementation would be one option, but that is the case here. Each "possible" has to be eliminated.

Filter media. Carbon is not necessary in planted tanks, and while it will remove some nutrients I doubt this is the main issue. But I would remove the carbon. Biomax is fine, I have this in my canisters.

Light. This could be a problem. It is interesting that the Anubias, a low-light plant, is very healthy. While the high-light plants (faster growing plants equal more light and nutrients) are dying. Every plant in the tank except the Anubias is fast-growing requiring more intense light and more nutrients to balance. Nutrient supplementation is likely a factor too, but you cannot ignore the light. Red is the most important colour for plant photosynthesis, and that is weak here. While low-light plants (Anubias, ferns, mosses) can manage well with less than ideal light because they use so little, higher-light requiring plants cannot. Again, likely not the whole story, but one factor. When something as significant as light is not up to scratch, the plants will struggle.

Fertilizer. Seachem Flourish...do you mean Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium (to give it the full name), or another product in the Flourish line? The Comp is about the best supplement available, not to say others may not be as good or better, but this one is good. It has all 14 necessary nutrients (only carbon, hydrogen and oxygen are not included as they are available from the tank itself). I would dose the recommended amount, one dose a week, the day following the water change (assuming you use a conditioner that detoxifies heavy metals which can negate some nutrients but this wears off after a day or so). If you are using some other "Flourish" product, let me know, but no other is going to help here.

Harlequin fish issue. I agree to leave this for the moment. Your water is not too hard (if the 8 dGH is accurate) for this fish, but the platy will not do well long-term as it is too soft. Don't acquire any more livebearers, just soft water species. I won't guess as to the death cause, but the shoal size is not that big an issue given the circumstances. [I have three Trigonstigma hengeli left from the original shoal of 10 several years ago.]

When you say you do water tests at the water change...are these tests before you change the water, or after? Always test before so you get a better idea of what is going on; after the water test will usually mean different results, which is fine for some tests but those that are done to ascertain conditions should be before the W/C. And after to see changes, fine.

 

[seangee]

I seem to recall that your water was harder than that (may be wrong though).
Every tank is different but here is what I use in my flex - which may be a starting point for you to work from.

1. Standard lights on full white for 9 hours a day. (Mine is in a room with blackout blinds so you may need to adjust accordingly. My surface is also 80% covered in floating plants so that may be another adjustment.
2. Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium (as mentioned by Byron) once a week at half the recommended dosage.
   
3. I have sand substrate and don't vacuum this.

The tank has just had a massive thinning out of the planted and floating watersprite and floating duckweed because they were so thick they were blocking the light, and I could never find my fish . The vals did take a month or so to establish and looked pretty miserable until then. The water sprite did struggle initially but have now taken off - I took a lot more out than I left in last night.

 

[IndiaHawker]

Thanks so much for all the help everyone! Now, a lot of info to reply to :

The vallis looks like giant vallis and if so, that never does well in aquariums. It usually comes from cool water ponds and fails dismally in tropical aquariums.

Are you talking about the plant at the back left? That's one of the two that came with the tank (and I can imagine you're right, as the leaves seem way too long for an aquarium! It's a lot taller (what's left of it) than the other plants. Depending on how it does I might take it out altogether once the plants are hopefully flourishing and the fish have more shelter without it. The vallis corkscrew I was referring to is at the back left - didn't come very corkscrewy-looking but appeared to be developing a curly baby leaf until it fell to bits

Filter media. Carbon is not necessary in planted tanks, and while it will remove some nutrients I doubt this is the main issue. But I would remove the carbon. Biomax is fine, I have this in my canisters.

Could it possibly slightly improve things if I remove the carbon from my filter? If so - is there anything you would recommend replacing it with? I'm totally clueless about filter media, so I'm all ears!

Light. This could be a problem. It is interesting that the Anubias, a low-light plant, is very healthy. While the high-light plants (faster growing plants equal more light and nutrients) are dying. Every plant in the tank except the Anubias is fast-growing requiring more intense light and more nutrients to balance. Nutrient supplementation is likely a factor too, but you cannot ignore the light. Red is the most important colour for plant photosynthesis, and that is weak here. While low-light plants (Anubias, ferns, mosses) can manage well with less than ideal light because they use so little, higher-light requiring plants cannot. Again, likely not the whole story, but one factor. When something as significant as light is not up to scratch, the plants will struggle.

You saying this has given me a thought. Being off work at the moment my schedule has been all over the place and I haven't had a great regular dark/light cycle in my tank. I often come up to my room quite late and leave the light on for a bit to watch the fish... and before I know it minutes are hours and it's getting light in the morning by the time I turn the tank light off. I generally get around eight hours of light-off time but often it's light outside when the tank is 'dark' - I have my curtains drawn but they let a lot of light through. Could this be part of the problem? If so, I can enforce a stricter day/night cycle with the tank.

Fertilizer. Seachem Flourish...do you mean Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium (to give it the full name), or another product in the Flourish line?

Yep, that's the one! Glad to hear that it's good. I've only used it once so far, last week - going to do second dose tomorrow as did water change today. Thanks for that bit of advice about waiting a day, it's stuck in my head!

When you say you do water tests at the water change...are these tests before you change the water, or after? Always test before so you get a better idea of what is going on; after the water test will usually mean different results, which is fine for some tests but those that are done to ascertain conditions should be before the W/C. And after to see changes, fine.

I do both, and make sure to note in my records whether I did it before or after the water change. I was testing most days to start with, but as everything seems to be pretty stable apart from the three Rasboras dying, I've been testing only a couple of times a week now.

I seem to recall that your water was harder than that (may be wrong though).

Hmm, not sure - it's been testing at 8dh for a while now although I vaguely remember a few weeks back it reading between 8/16 - may have been me misreading the test at the time or other reasons, I don't know...

Every tank is different but here is what I use in my flex - which may be a starting point for you to work from.

1. Standard lights on full white for 9 hours a day. (Mine is in a room with blackout blinds so you may need to adjust accordingly. My surface is also 80% covered in floating plants so that may be another adjustment.
2. Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium (as mentioned by Byron) once a week at half the recommended dosage.
   
3. I have sand substrate and don't vacuum this.

Thanks! I mentioned something just now about my flaky light schedule due to being off work at the moment - do you think this could be affecting my plant growth? Like you I do almost always keep my light on the brightest white setting. That's the fertilizer I'm now using - good to see you've had good results with it! And same here with the substrate - when water changing I've been vaccing it out of the back sections as means I can suction any crap out of the back at the same time! I find that pouring the water back in just enough to disturb the sand a bit makes it look a lot cleaner whilst still leaving behind some debris that probably helps the ecosystem

 

[IndiaHawker]

Harlequin #4 has passed away whilst I've been in the room tonight. One minute all fine, next I go to turn off the light and my largest HR is dead at the bottom of the tank now. So confused. Everything as far as I'm aware is fine and it only seems to be the HRs dying. I'm wondering if they could possibly have some illness that isn't clearly/at all visible, at this point? I'm just lost as to why they keep dying

 

[Colin_T]

Yes the Vallis is the long flat reedy plant along the back of the tank. It grows to 4ft long and about 20mm wide.

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If you have carbon in the filter it will absorb the fertiliser for a bit and then the carbon will become full and no longer absorb anything. If you use plant fertilisers you don't want to have carbon in the filter.

Sponges are the best thing for filters. They trap dirt and hold beneficial filter bacteria.

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Have the tank light on for 12 hours a day and see how they go. Use a timer and have it come on at 10am and go off at 10pm (or something like that). Light coming through a window is not going to help the plants unless the tank is next to the window and the light is shining directly on the tank.

In the morning turn the room light on or open the curtain. Wait 30minutes or more before turning the tank light on.
At night turn the room light on, then turn the tank light off. Wait 30 minutes or more before turning the room light off.
Doing this reduces the stress on the fish and they don't go from a dark tank to bright light and vice versa.

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If you are losing fish, stop adding stuff to the water, that includes fertiliser. Just add a dechlorinator to any new water before it is added to the tank.

Check water quality for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate & pH.

Do some big (75%) water changes and gravel clean the substrate, and clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last month.

Post some pictures or the sick/ dying/ dead fish.

 

[seangee]

Get a cheap analog timer from a hardware shop or Amazon. Set this to the number of hours you want on and then just leave the lights on. Probably somewhere between 8 and 12 hours. This does not have to be in the daytime so make sure they are on at the time you are most likely to be at the tank. Your room lights won't have any effect on the plants. Sunlight will have a small effect but you shouldn't have sunlight directly on the tank.

 

[IndiaHawker]

Thank you!

I may well remove the carbon then - I'm assuming it has no significant benefit in the tank? Is there anything better I can put in the gap, or shall I just fill it with more sponge? Or leave gap empty?

Right, I will set myself a more strict schedule of 12 hours on/off a day. May consider getting a timer - I feel like you mentioned something specific I need to do with the Flex in order to make the timer work but can't remember?

Been planning on adding in more fertilizer tonight as I really don't believe that's linked to the Rasbora's deaths - they were dying before I used it and have died since. I did a water change yesterday but was able to be bang on specific with the amount I used thanks to my new buckets with measurements on So I don't believe I've done anything wrong with the chemicals - I also made sure to underdose rather than overdose with the fertilizer as advised.

Been testing water regularly - nitrite has been staying at 0ppm, nitrate however has been around 50ppm and no matter what I do I can't seem to lower it. Reached 100ppm a couple of times before water change but even straight after water change it remains at around 50ppm. Ammonia tends to be at 0.5-1ppm before water change and 0-0.5 after (thinking of getting liquid tests as struggling to tell which colour the strips are closest to). The only thing I can think of causing the nitrate and ammonia is the tube leading from the pump to the outlet - here's a pic for anyone unfamiliar with the flex:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz...0k1j0i24k1.0.rjOjcTGV9fU#imgrc=Eru_nWd9dgi9UM:

Got the tank secondhand and could see the tube had been zip-tied so I assume it had been falling off. However since I got it it's looked filthy inside and I can't remove it to clean it inside. Been looking but can't seem to find a replacement online, asked on the Fluval Flex FB page that someone recommended and waiting to find out what a bristley-looking tool someone has been using is called. This is the only thing I can think that can possibly be causing the nitrate/ammonia as I've been changing about 50% (possibly more as the rocks fill up a lot of space) water weekly, whilst sucking up crap out of the back with the vac at the same time, and cleaning out the filter weekly too.

Wish I'd thought to take a pic of the poor dead rasbora last night but didn't. As far as I'm aware the fish looked perfect, totally normal, just not alive. The only other thing I can think is if they're being outcompeted for food? I just don't understand why the rasboras are dying but the others seem fine?

Please and thanks, again!

 

[Colin_T]

What is the pH of your water?
If the pH is above 7.0, then any ammonia will be doing damage to the fish and possibly be why the rasboras are dying.

You need to do bigger water changes (75%) and complete gravel cleans every day to lower ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. Once the ammonia and nitrite levels are 0, and the nitrate is less than 20ppm, then you can do water changes less often.

Check your tap water for ammonia, nitrite & nitrate. Some tap water has these in (usually nitrate) and you do water changes but the nitrates stay high. If your tap water has nitrates then you will need to look into a prefilter to remove the nitrates before the water is added to the tank.

Try to use liquid test kits because they are more reliable and accurate than paper test strips. Keep the test kits cool and dry and check the expiry date when you buy them. The best place for test kits is in a plastic icecream container with lid, on the bottom shelf in the fridge. If you have a self defrost fridge, keep the kits away from the back of the fridge where the heat comes from during the defrost process.

Clean the pump and plastic hose in the filter. Gravel clean the tank. Remove the carbon and throw it away. Fill the filter up with sponges.

 

[NickAu]

The only thing I can think of causing the nitrate and ammonia is the tube leading from the pump to the outlet - here's a pic for anyone unfamiliar with the flex:

I cant see why it would be a problem that tube is about 12 inches or less long., I use canister filters and on the 6 foot tank I use 10 feet of hose without any problems.

Check your tap water for ammonia, nitrite & nitrate.

Agreed.