My First Fishless Cycle
- Thread starter Miss Wiggle
- Start date
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
Good Morning MW,
One of the things I discovered about black brush algae (BBA) and I'm sure you may have run across is that it is stimulated by CO2 variation and that it likes to live in the higher current areas.
It took me a little while but I finally realized that my large weekly 50% water changes were a factor. I refill directly from the tap via my Python and of course the tap water contains an extra dose of CO2 by virtue of the city water pressure. So I assume the CO2 levels shoot way up then at some point drop way back down once the CO2 gasses out under the normal atmospheric pressure of the tank and the fact that I do Excel rather than pressurized.
This of course was a royal disappointment, me being quite self-satisfied with saving my back and never having to lug a bucket and I was left dreaming of an "attic holding tank" where tap water could sit and lose its CO2 before being siphoned in to the tank - but of course that was just something for "dreamworld."
I also observed that my little tufts of BBA (I only had a few here and there and lately they've not reappeared) were always out there on the farther points of the Java Fern leaves that were waving in the significant current from my Koralia. I've tweeked my photoperiods downward a little (yet again) and that may be a factor working against the BBA, not to mention that frequent trips this past summer have removed a fair number of my weekly water changes that should have been happening!
Anyway, those are my couple of observations about BBA and wondering if you had any additional observations after your experience with the problem.
~~waterdrop~~
One of the things I discovered about black brush algae (BBA) and I'm sure you may have run across is that it is stimulated by CO2 variation and that it likes to live in the higher current areas.
It took me a little while but I finally realized that my large weekly 50% water changes were a factor. I refill directly from the tap via my Python and of course the tap water contains an extra dose of CO2 by virtue of the city water pressure. So I assume the CO2 levels shoot way up then at some point drop way back down once the CO2 gasses out under the normal atmospheric pressure of the tank and the fact that I do Excel rather than pressurized.
This of course was a royal disappointment, me being quite self-satisfied with saving my back and never having to lug a bucket and I was left dreaming of an "attic holding tank" where tap water could sit and lose its CO2 before being siphoned in to the tank - but of course that was just something for "dreamworld."
I also observed that my little tufts of BBA (I only had a few here and there and lately they've not reappeared) were always out there on the farther points of the Java Fern leaves that were waving in the significant current from my Koralia. I've tweeked my photoperiods downward a little (yet again) and that may be a factor working against the BBA, not to mention that frequent trips this past summer have removed a fair number of my weekly water changes that should have been happening!
Anyway, those are my couple of observations about BBA and wondering if you had any additional observations after your experience with the problem.
~~waterdrop~~
Yep BBA first appeared in our tank when i started using co2, and i had some problems with the regulator,
and we usually run our tanks with fairly high flow so we had it almost every where.
it did disapear when we didn`t turn the lights on for a month or so,
and we usually run our tanks with fairly high flow so we had it almost every where.
it did disapear when we didn`t turn the lights on for a month or so,
OP
OP
Miss Wiggle
Practically perfect in every way
Breaking news - we have nitrite! Only 0.25ppm but it means something is happening which is great news 
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
Ah nitrite, like a tiny purple gremlin peeking around the corner with a smile.
OP
OP
Miss Wiggle
Practically perfect in every way
Yeah we were surprised and very pleased to see it so soon! Also have 5ppm of nitrate and the tap water has 0ppm so we have some A-Bacs and some N-Bacs too already!
We do have a little theory about how it's started so quickly, we took a punt on an unbranded filter from a random website that looked good but perhaps too good to be true. It has a little surface inlet which sucks up little bits floating on the surface of the water. We didn't have it working at first as we weren't sure about it and you could choose to cap it off. We had an oily film forming on the surface which Ian say's some of that is bacteria starting to grow. Anyway as soon as we set the surface inlet going the film went and a day or so later the nitrite appeared. So I dunno if that little trick sucked the young bacteria from the surface into the filter and kicked things off quickly.
I could be wrong - we could just be lucky for it to start so soon!
We do have a little theory about how it's started so quickly, we took a punt on an unbranded filter from a random website that looked good but perhaps too good to be true. It has a little surface inlet which sucks up little bits floating on the surface of the water. We didn't have it working at first as we weren't sure about it and you could choose to cap it off. We had an oily film forming on the surface which Ian say's some of that is bacteria starting to grow. Anyway as soon as we set the surface inlet going the film went and a day or so later the nitrite appeared. So I dunno if that little trick sucked the young bacteria from the surface into the filter and kicked things off quickly.
I could be wrong - we could just be lucky for it to start so soon!
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
Interesting thought. Usually surface films are proteins but I suppose bacteria could be present too, there would certainly be more O2 available there for the few autotrophs that might have escaped the chloramine. WD
OP
OP
Miss Wiggle
Practically perfect in every way
Well it could even be that it's sucking in some extra protein and food for the bacteria?!
Anyway this morning we have 2ppm ammonia and 2 ppm nitrite so topped up the ammonia to around 5ppm. All going swimmingly so far.
Anyway this morning we have 2ppm ammonia and 2 ppm nitrite so topped up the ammonia to around 5ppm. All going swimmingly so far.
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
I think as heterotrophs, we eat protein, so we tend to think of it in our list of foods, but I think autotrophic bacteria, being on the opposite extreme of the environmental cycles from us, deal with things like ammonia and minerals... however, its interesting biochemically to think about whether perhaps metal ions or various mineral ions might be expressed at the edges of proteins and serve to supply autotrophic bacteria in some way.
Even in the deepest of detailed scientific literature (in fact, especially there!) one can see our vast ignorance as humans of what really goes on except for the tiny inroads we've made in areas like our own human health-related or need-related areas (and even in those of course we struggle on, much more knowledgeable than we were centuries ago but greatly ignorant still of things we will know in decades and centuries coming up if all goes well.
I was blown away, reading the Hovanec articles, by the extreme difficulty in just even *identifying* our two species of autotrophs, let alone understanding how they reproduce or what their biofilms are like or anything even remotely approaching any understanding of the biochemical interactions they would typically have with their environment. And on top of that its mind-blowing how difficult even the simplest communication of some simple fact is when broadcasting it out to the world.. I mean, here was a guy spending thousands or hundreds of thousands in a lab and -telling- us (if I remember this right, lol) that it -wasn't- Nitrobacter, that is was Nitrospira, and years later, as far as I can tell, the majority of sources still get it dead wrong! What does this say about communication??
~~waterdrop~~
maybe its when I drink the coffee before eating the cereal, is that it MW/BI?
Even in the deepest of detailed scientific literature (in fact, especially there!) one can see our vast ignorance as humans of what really goes on except for the tiny inroads we've made in areas like our own human health-related or need-related areas (and even in those of course we struggle on, much more knowledgeable than we were centuries ago but greatly ignorant still of things we will know in decades and centuries coming up if all goes well.
I was blown away, reading the Hovanec articles, by the extreme difficulty in just even *identifying* our two species of autotrophs, let alone understanding how they reproduce or what their biofilms are like or anything even remotely approaching any understanding of the biochemical interactions they would typically have with their environment. And on top of that its mind-blowing how difficult even the simplest communication of some simple fact is when broadcasting it out to the world.. I mean, here was a guy spending thousands or hundreds of thousands in a lab and -telling- us (if I remember this right, lol) that it -wasn't- Nitrobacter, that is was Nitrospira, and years later, as far as I can tell, the majority of sources still get it dead wrong! What does this say about communication??
~~waterdrop~~
maybe its when I drink the coffee before eating the cereal, is that it MW/BI?
OP
OP
Miss Wiggle
Practically perfect in every way
Yeah there are some things that remind you just how ignorant we are on scientific matters! Even on the things that are really important to us as a race e.g. Human health. Dunno if you know I was diagnosed with MS earlier this year which has been thought to be a neuological disorder for a very long time now. There's some new research around which thinks actually it's a problem with your jugular vein! They don't know if it's right yet or not however it's amazing to think we have got something like that so fundamentally wrong. So the chances of us fully understanding the workings of nitrifying bacteria important pretty much only to some fishkeepers is slim to none.
Carbon 60 nano-tubes are the answer to everything
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
You're right Ian, the number of published articles involving nanotubes is staggering!
OP
OP
Miss Wiggle
Practically perfect in every way
nitrite up to about 5ppm and nitrate up to about 40ppm so there's definitely some stuff going on.
now the pH has gone up from 7.0 to about 7.6 so I think a water change tomorrow to try to maintain it around 7 if possible.
now the pH has gone up from 7.0 to about 7.6 so I think a water change tomorrow to try to maintain it around 7 if possible.
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
Remember, a pH of 8.0 to 8.4 is optimal for autotrophic bacterial growth. Your "bacterial growing soup" seems to be getting better on its own, no need to work against it. Its really in the third phase (after the nitrite spike has started dropping to zero each day) that big water changes seem to give the most help. Its true though that OM47 and I have theorized that big water changes even during the nitrite spike (with recharges of ammonia) should possibly help you more than the disturbance of the water change hurts (it would help because of Hovanecs observation that high nitrates slow N-Bac growth.)
WD
WD
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