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julielynn47

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Day before yesterday my pictus catfish looked fine. Then yesterday they were covered in ich. 2 of them I doubt will make it.

I am sure they must have had it for awhile and just showed no signs of it. But it can't be treated until you know it is there. So what is a person to do?

I went to town today to try to find something for it that won't hurt scaleless fish. But I couldn't find anything. I found a lot for fish with scales, but for my pictus. I have no idea what to do except start again, because they are obviously not going to make it. If I could have gotten something for it, maybe they would. But they have gone downhill since I left and came back home. I can't believe it happened so fast.

I am going to do water changes everyday and hope the cory cats and the gouarmie do not get it too.
If anyone has any suggestions that might help just fire away. I know I could raise the water temp, but at this point I doubt it would help much. Maybe some ich meds would have helped, but you have to be able to find them first. I was looking for Jungle Ich Guard II for scaleless fish. I can't even find a place online to purchase it much less an actual brick and morter store that sells it.
 
raise the temperature to 86..it worked for one of my tanks...keep it there for two weeks..

also do a 50 % water change every two or three days and vacuum the substrate with a syphon
 
I agree to raise the temp, but it is not likely to kill the ich at only 86F. I have been advised that at 90F the ich is likely to be killed. This might be too high for the Pictus; their upper range is 77F (25 C) so this is quite an increase. I faced this with my cories.

Neale Monks told me to raise the temp to 86F and use aquarium salt. I did this (he knew the species when he advised me) with cories, loaches (scaleless), farlowella (very sensitive fish) and whiptails with no losses and no extreme stress that I could see. I am not saying Pictus are the same, I'll leave that for others with experience.

Have good surface disturbance, add airstones if you like or aim the filter return so it creates disturbance and bubbles. If you do the salt, use 2 grams per liter; a level teaspoon is approximately 6 grams (for 3 liters). Don't overdose, so calculate the volume considering substrate, decor, etc displacement. Better to be very slightly under than over. Do a major water change, raise the temp by this and the heater (a couple degrees with the WC is OK, then heater from there). Add the salt over a few hours, in stages; dissolve completely in water and pour it in (non-dissolved salt can burn any fish). Maintain this for two weeks, with a water change after week 1 and replacing salt for the fresh water only.

Monitor the fish response and at any sign of stress do a water change. Some discomfort is to be expected, from the heat and the salt individually. But if extreme, do the WC.

Byron.
 
I ordered some Kordon Rid Ich Plus. I know most of you here don't like to use meds, and that is fine, I don't wish to start any debates over that. I 99% agree with that. But there is 1% of me that will use them at times and this is one of those times.

I think it is a little late for me to be raising the temp for this episode. I figure I have lost one of the 3 already. Maybe 2, the lights have not come yet and I can't see in the tank good. But the tank needs to be treated for ich regardless if none of the 3 make it.

I have used the Jungle brand years upon top of years ago on a pictus with ich. It worked and the fish lived. Now the bottle reads not to use it on scaleless fish, so I didn't buy it. It said use Ich Gaurd 2, which I can't find anywhere, not even online. So last night I just ordered this. I will be using it at half strength as it suggests. I doubt these catfish make it, but maybe I can get rid of the ich so it does not effect anything in the future.
 
I hope I can help here....I am a very old school type of aquarist, I did it for decades and had great success, I worked in pet shops and wholesalers during my HS and college years. I can almost bet that what I am going to put out here is going to get flamed but I can't help myself if I believe I can help someone.
Someone mentioned salt, I am very big on salt addition. I am not very particular on what type, just definitely not Iodized table salt. Kosher salt did the trick for me for years. I always learned that a Tablespoon for every 5 gallons of water is a good all the time prophylaxis, something I maintained in my tanks all the time. I would start there. As for dissolving it or not, I am not convinced that either is necessarily better (Oh I can smell the fighting post coming on!). Get the salt in the water and raise the temp to about 5 degrees higher than you normally keep it. I think 90 is way outside the realm of safe for any lengthy time. Increase the oxygen level in your tank with an air stone or good surface agitation.

A quick bit about ich....The parasite is in the water all the time, it is only when your fish experience stress that they are successfully attacked. Ich has a life cycle that you can interrupt and so kill the organism. The cyst (white dot you see) is a case of sorts that will fall off to the gravel depending on temp and that cyst will break open and a couple thousand "little ichs" will free swim looking for a host. They find one, burrow in and it starts over. Heat lessens the amount of time they can be free swimming before they die, so yes heat does kill them. Salt help fish maintain a healthy slime coat (barrier) so the parasite cannot burrow in so easily. Your fish had ich long before you saw it on the outside, the gills are the [preferred target as they act essentially as a filter for the water the fish uses to breath. The massive (relative) amount of water that passes over the gills simply puts the parasite in a good position more often. Once there is sufficient infestation, cysts are seen on the body. Most fish suffocate (more or less) from ich as it attacks the gills so readily. Raising the tank temp makes less O2 available at a time when the fish needs it most, hence the additional aeration. Understanding the enemy is the first step in killing it. Medications attack the parasite in its free swimming stage, cysts are pretty much impervious.

So after all that, raise the temp to the mid 80s, increase aeration, use salt at a rate of a tablespoon for 5 gal. This should start to beat up the ich. Meds are fine as long as they are safe for the fish you are dealing with. Oh and salt and cats.....I kept many types and they always had salted water.

I hope this helps.
Jim
 
You raised it Jim, so I feel obligated to comment. Salt. The type is Aquarium Salt, or plain sea salt (which I believe is what Kosher Salt is), with no additives, is fine.

Now, to the matter of using salt regularly/continually. This is not good at all. Salt at minimal levels has no benefit whatsoever. It works against some parasites at higher levels, but this should be temporary. I have a published article on this here
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/SaltArtHosking.htm
which you might like to read for the explanation. Using salt regularly to act as some sort of magic preventative is one of those myths that have been thoroughly disproved. And it is detrimental to fish.

Byron.
 
Byron,
I read your article as well as the references that would come up after clicking the highlighted addresses. Interesting read and some information that has been thoroughly researched. Not all of the information was such that salt was considered ghastly, however some good arguments were made against it. I appreciate the work you have done with regard to the subject.
I guess I am a hard headed old timer from another era of fish keeping. The stated benefits from some of the sources you referenced are primarily where my head has always been. Careful addition and maintenance of a salt level had for decades worked for me without apparent harm. I was a keeper of many catfish from all over the world and I sold most of my fish after 10+ runs with some going beyond 17 years. I kept many S. American and Asian species also. I cannot attest to the ill effects that some of the literature points to and can only trust that my experience with salt was somehow not as harmful as some may believe. It is not magic, that is obvious, but it does have a place in the husbandry of aquatic creatures. It drives me nuts when I see so many suffering Ich break-outs with such regularity when I hadn't seen a single spot in better than 10 years with fish that regularly fought (big cichlids) and through a couple of moves of large aquarium systems. I didn't own any meds either. I will keep my salt love affair to myself, it appears that things have changed much in the years I have been out of the hobby. Thanks for the clarifications.
Jim
 
Byron,
I read your article as well as the references that would come up after clicking the highlighted addresses. Interesting read and some information that has been thoroughly researched. Not all of the information was such that salt was considered ghastly, however some good arguments were made against it. I appreciate the work you have done with regard to the subject.
I guess I am a hard headed old timer from another era of fish keeping. The stated benefits from some of the sources you referenced are primarily where my head has always been. Careful addition and maintenance of a salt level had for decades worked for me without apparent harm. I was a keeper of many catfish from all over the world and I sold most of my fish after 10+ runs with some going beyond 17 years. I kept many S. American and Asian species also. I cannot attest to the ill effects that some of the literature points to and can only trust that my experience with salt was somehow not as harmful as some may believe. It is not magic, that is obvious, but it does have a place in the husbandry of aquatic creatures. It drives me nuts when I see so many suffering Ich break-outs with such regularity when I hadn't seen a single spot in better than 10 years with fish that regularly fought (big cichlids) and through a couple of moves of large aquarium systems. I didn't own any meds either. I will keep my salt love affair to myself, it appears that things have changed much in the years I have been out of the hobby. Thanks for the clarifications.
Jim

I'm not going to argue, having made the case with the science, but I just want to mention something about your past "success" using regular salt, and it not appearing to cause harm.

Stress is the direct cause of 95% of all fish disease. Stressed fish are more prone to problems. But stress can be present at relatively low levels, and not become chronic, for years. The salt will cause stress, so there is no point using it unnecessarily. However, some fish are better able to cope than others; hard water fish for example tolerate salt much better. There is also the fact that other things may have been suited to the fish, so the salt was not as much of an added issue for them as it could be in another situation. The fact that fish live through various things is not proof that it is not or has not affected them. Lifespans are usually shortened by these things, though no fish has an absolute lifespan so this is difficult to pin down as well. Without dissection by a biologist or microbiologist it is impossible to say. But the risk is there, and given the consequences if disease should develop, it is a risk that is not necessary and one that should be minimized or avoided.

Byron.
 
Thank you both for the insights. I honestly appreciate them all.

The only experience I have ever had with ich was almost 30 years ago and it turned out alright with the Jungle Ich Guard, that now the bottle says not to use. I am just going to use the Kordon at half strength as it suggests, do daily water changes, run my diatom filter and hope for the best.

As for stress, I just don't know. I have not done a thing to stress out the fish. No other fish in the tank has it. I had 3 catfish, now I have 1. Didn't even notice anything thing one day and then the next day they are ate up with it.

I am thinking that they might have had it when I brought them home and I just didn't know it.

I have had my 55 gallon going since 2007 and I have never had ich before in it. I don't do anything different with it than with the 75 gallon. That is why I am thinking that they had it when I bought them. And I may never buy another fish from WalMart... I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not, but these 3 fish are the first ones I have gotten from Wal Mart and now this ich.... I just don't know but I wonder....
 
If one fish has it they all do or will shortly.

If you can get some garlic juice and soak the fish food in it before feeding, the garlic boosts the fishes immune system.
 
If one fish has it they all do or will shortly.

If you can get some garlic juice and soak the fish food in it before feeding, the garlic boosts the fishes immune system.
Garlic juice is safe for fish o.o?
 
Thank you both for the insights. I honestly appreciate them all.

The only experience I have ever had with ich was almost 30 years ago and it turned out alright with the Jungle Ich Guard, that now the bottle says not to use. I am just going to use the Kordon at half strength as it suggests, do daily water changes, run my diatom filter and hope for the best.

As for stress, I just don't know. I have not done a thing to stress out the fish. No other fish in the tank has it. I had 3 catfish, now I have 1. Didn't even notice anything thing one day and then the next day they are ate up with it.

I am thinking that they might have had it when I brought them home and I just didn't know it.

I have had my 55 gallon going since 2007 and I have never had ich before in it. I don't do anything different with it than with the 75 gallon. That is why I am thinking that they had it when I bought them. And I may never buy another fish from WalMart... I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not, but these 3 fish are the first ones I have gotten from Wal Mart and now this ich.... I just don't know but I wonder....
Walmart tanks are absolutely horrid. The one in town down here always has dead fish just free floating or stuck to the filter intake. They never clean the tanks and they are ALWAYS overcrowded and mixed with incompatible species. The only fish I have ever bought from walmart was my very first betta who I found sulking in a cup turned blue with whatever medicine they were using to mask his symptoms. Before him I had a simple ten gallon and, because I'm a sucker, I dropped 50$ on a new tank kit instead of going for dogfood and I brought home a fish.

I know those little faces might pull at your heartstrings, but never buy a fish from walmart unless you are prepared to nurse it back to health because one fish can kill your entire stock. I was lucky with my betta and I only had to treat him with a bit of meds for fin rot, plus he was already isolated in his own tank so it was easier. Best of luck with your fishies, I'm currently dosing my own tank with heat and salt to battle the same problem, but not as severe.
 
I don't have any garlic juice, and yeah, I am not ever going to even look at the tanks at walmart again. These tanks looked really good though. Crystal clear water, no dead fish....I thought it would be okay. But what you can't see lurking will not be lurking for long....

I am going to do the daily water changes, run the diatom filter because it gets absolutely everything imaginable out of the water column, and dose the Kordon at half strength. Maybe I will save the remaining fish...if not, well, I tried I guess .
 
Not seeing dead fish and looking at what appear to be clean tanks does not get you out of the woods. Years ago, and perhaps still to this day, there was a task at pet shops it was called a "Shaeffer run" (sp). It was a scan through the tanks to find and remove any dead fish so customers don't see them. Light stocking and half decent filtration will yield clear water. One has to look closely at the fish stock, all of them, and let the fish do the talkin.
 

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