How Long Do You Leave Cucumber In The Tank For?

[raptorrex]

Darkstar
Actually that isn't the case, or not always. You've made a sweeping statement and applied it to everyone and everything. Nowhere has she stated how big the tanks are or how much veg is being put it into the tank. A large piece of veg if left to rot will alter the water in a small enviroment. In fact I find it a little strange how you can use the argument about par boiling being cooking and yet at the same time say you can leave veg in the water till it rots and it won't have any effect on water quality...of course it does, it might be minimal but everything has an effect.
For the record, when I put a 'piece' of cucumber in my tank,...I slice the whole cucumber down the middle and stick both pieces in. Within 8 hours the whole cucumber has been stripped bare by a number of plecs. The cucumber waste from the plecs alone is enough to block the filter inlets if I don't keep an eye on them, one more way to screw your water up.

surly you cant be suggesting that half a cucumber, even in a 10g tank would degenerate enough in 4 hours to affect the tank, never mind smaller bits, which is what many people use. you are correct though, as i did assume that the tanks being talked about would be of pleco size 40g+. even so my comments are sound.
i do not, and did not even suggest par boiling, the opposite in fact, as i suggested using weights. i mealy pointed out it was in fact cooking the veg, however slightly/

I've no idea why there's a comment about weighing the food down....using lead or stainless steel to make veg sink is 'better' than what?

is better than par boiling, as many do to cucumber/courgette, simply to make it sink.

Cutting vegetables will lose as much good stuff as cooking?!?!?but snapping or breaking doesn't......I find that an incredibly odd statement, so if I cut a courgette in half it's the same as boiling it is it?
Blanching or cooking veg doesn't just increase the degredation of the veg, which yes it does do...but it also helps soften certain veg which makes it more digestable to plecs. Although, vegetables such as cucumber and courgette do not need softening in the freezer or par boiling anyway. Potato is a good example, although if you don't want to blanch it you can leave it some tank water for 24 hours to soften it up.
I've no idea why there's a comment about weighing the food down....using lead or stainless steel to make veg sink is 'better' than what?

well i'm sorry for you lack of knowledge on the effect cutting as opposed to tearing has on the loss of nutrients in veg. anyone with a modicum of training in the culinary field will tell you the same.as i recall close to 60% of the vitamin content of say cabbage is lost through cutting, it is closer to 30% when it is torn. so yes torn, snapped and boiled veg will have a higher nutritional content than cut an boiled will. yes the loss of nutrients is roughly the same for boiling as cutting. odd but true.

AHH!! cooking/ per boiling does indeed soften the veg, this is however simply degeneration without bacteria. the heat causes the veg to break down its bonds just as bacteria would if it were left to rot, just because it does not smell or look bad does not mean it has not degenerated!


QUOTE
It's only tubers and leaves that need softening, and then only gently blanched, not cooked.

Do you think you need to correct him too?

no because if read in context, the statement is correct, true the word fully is not written, but the sentence does imply that.

Like I said earlier not veg all is preferred fresh by plecs. I can put potato in my tank and they won't touch it....soften it up for a 24 hours in a seperate container and they'll readily accept it.

very true, however my post did say let it break down, for those who do not like it fresh.

Of course, a lot of this is still open to scientific debate. Some argue that plecs such as Panaque should not even be fed vegetables but instead should be fed nothing but wood.

indeed so. but if you are going to feed them anything, you may as well make sure it got something in worth the effort. cutting and par boiling will leave precious little in the thing except fibre.

 

[jennybugs]

I don't par boil my courgette to 'make it sink', I par boil it to make it softer for my otos to eat.

 

[Darkstar]

surly you cant be suggesting that half a cucumber, even in a 10g tank would degenerate enough in 4 hours to affect the tank, never mind smaller bits, which is what many people use. you are correct though, as i did assume that the tanks being talked about would be of pleco size 40g+. even so my comments are sound.
i do not, and did not even suggest par boiling, the opposite in fact, as i suggested using weights. i mealy pointed out it was in fact cooking the veg, however slightly.

yes I do say that but I don't make any claims as to what extent it will degrade the water...adding anything which will degrade in water will have an affect on the water quality, the issue here is how much of an affect that will be. Negligable...probably, but an effect none the less.

is better than par boiling, as many do to cucumber/courgette, simply to make it sink.

par boiling, freezing isn't needed to weigh vegetables down, it's done to soften the veg and make it digestable for the plecs, that is the main reason.

well i'm sorry for you lack of knowledge on the effect cutting as opposed to tearing has on the loss of nutrients in veg. anyone with a modicum of training in the culinary field will tell you the same.as i recall close to 60% of the vitamin content of say cabbage is lost through cutting, it is closer to 30% when it is torn. so yes torn, snapped and boiled veg will have a higher nutritional content than cut an boiled will. yes the loss of nutrients is roughly the same for boiling as cutting. odd but true.

That maybe the case but that is not what you initially wrote.

You wrote:

simply cutting it will loose as much "good stuff" as cooking does

(Obviously we're not talking about par boiling here as you've already made the distinction between the two so we're talking about properly boiling/cooking the veg.) yet you haven't provided any figures which proves that point

Now your comparing cutting and cooking to tearing and cooking, of which your nutritional values in a lab may well be correct, I do not dispute that. So maybe you intended to write that first time round but the problem lies with your explanation not my lack of knowledge when it comes to cookery.


Secondly and more importantly, I don't cut the vegetables for my fish to the same degree as I would when i'm cooking for myself. Your example of cabbage should also be put in context that cabbage is normally shredded, so there's a lot of cutting involved. I don't think anyone here cuts their vegetables to the same degree as a kitchen would with cabbage so your nutritional loss values aren't going to be anywhere near the same...well that's my uneducated assumption anyway.
I slice one cucumber down the middle and as much as you might say otherwise I refuse to believe one cut automatically removes over half the nutritional content...although please feel free to provide scientific evidence which proves otherwise.

AHH!! cooking/ per boiling does indeed soften the veg, this is however simply degeneration without bacteria. the heat causes the veg to break down its bonds just as bacteria would if it were left to rot, just because it does not smell or look bad does not mean it has not degenerated!

errr no-one said it didn't. See response number 2.

no because if read in context, the statement is correct, true the word fully is not written, but the sentence does imply that.

It implies it no more or no less than Jennybugs statement did imo...the only real difference is you're willing to give Nmonks the benefit of the doubt but not Jennybugs.

very true, however my post did say let it break down, for those who do not like it fresh.

some like Plecos and RTBS like it nice and fresh

- no it didn't. As I explained some veg is preffered by my plecs once it has been left to soften up, others they will happily take fresh with no softening, freezing, par boiling at all.

indeed so. but if you are going to feed them anything, you may as well make sure it got something in worth the effort. cutting and par boiling will leave precious little in the thing except fibre.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my last comment: If you're going to feed them anything then let it be wood. Assuming you agree with the science behind it. My comment has nothing to do with vegetables, other than not to give any to them, so I fail to see your point.

Darkstar.

 

[raptorrex]

can get cucumber to sink without weights, or cooking?
as for the rest, entertaining but of little help. if you feel i have a vendetta against anyone on this thread, report me to a mod. if not please don't spoil a useful and informative thread.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

The only reason why i microwave the cucumber for a minute or so is because i remember being told that plecos like common plecos have a hard time digesting the cucumber sometimes and microwaving the cucumber for a minute or so can help soften up the cucumber a little bit without losing the nutrients in the cucumber

To be precise, it's the cellulose in the plant walls which most catfish have a problem breaking down, which is no doubt why it comes out the same colour it went in lol...
In reality though cucumber has very little nutritional value, you'd be better off offering some other form of veg imo. A list of recommended fruit and veg can be found here: <a href="http/www.plecofanatics.com/articles/showentry.php?e=80&catid=2" target="_blank">http/www.plecofanatics.com/articles/show...=80&catid=2</a>

Of course, a lot of this is still open to scientific debate. Some argue that plecs such as Panaque should not even be fed vegetables but instead should be fed nothing but wood.


Darkstar.

Ah yes that was what i was told, hm, yes cellulose.


I know cucumber is not the most nutritious of vegetables but it is still a good food none the less, but should not make up the bulk of the pleco's diet, but rather be added to the fishes diet to help increase variety of foods in the fishes diet (variety of foods is often the key to a good diet and better health in fish).

The main reason though why i think it is important to feed fresh fruit and/or veg to fish is because of vitamin C, unless you have algae growing in your tank which your fish like pleco's can eat, it can be difficult for fish to get enough vitamin C in their diets.

"Vitamin C chemically decomposes under certain conditions, many of which may occur during the cooking of food. Normally, boiling water at 100°C is not hot enough to cause any significant destruction of the nutrient, which only decomposes at 190°C, [33] despite popular opinion. However, pressure cooking, roasting, frying and grilling food is more likely to reach the decomposition temperature of vitamin C. Longer cooking times also add to this effect, as will copper food vessels, which catalyse the decomposition.[33]

Another cause of vitamin C being lost from food is leaching, where the water-soluble vitamin dissolves into the cooking water, which is later poured away and not consumed. However, vitamin C doesn't leach in all vegetables at the same rate; research shows broccoli seems to retain more than any other.[92] Research has also shown that fresh-cut fruit don't lose significant nutrients when stored in the refrigerator for a few days.[93]"

<a href="http/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C" target="_blank">http/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C</a>


I'm not sure how accurate this above quote is from wikipedia, however i have read that heat can destroy vitamin C and the vitamin C content of food also decreases as the food becomes less fresh.




One thing though which i am trying to find information on which i would really appreiciate if anyone can help me out about, is what exactly does heat do to cellulose and can you detroy it or lower its content in fruit and veg by heating the fruit/veg? What kind of temperature would you need to expose to the fruit/veg to have any effect on the cellulose in it?

I haven't really thought about this until now, and i'm now wondering, will heating fruit and veg like cucumber actually help break down the cellulose in foods like cucumber? Or would you have to heat the fruit/veg to such a degree to have any effect on the cellulose that it is likely to turn the fruit/veg into mush and so make it unpractical to feed it to the fish?

As human beings we can't digest cellulose, but it is important as a form of roughage in our diet to help give us a smooth digestion. If you had a fish though, would feeding any type of fruit and veg to the fish which can eat have the positive effect of helping clear any constipation the fish is suffering from? Most people recommend feeding pea's to fish which have constipation, and as far as i am aware it is the cellulose and fibre that helps clear the fishes gut out and so gets rid of the constipation- so in theory, cucumber could make as good a replacement for pea's when treating constipation in fish etc.

 

[Darkstar]

can get cucumber to sink without weights, or cooking?

I never stated it wouldn't sink on it's own...stick a teapsoon/screwcumber in it and it'll sink quite happily. No need for freezing, par boiling or anything else. There is no need to change the consistency of the food to make it sink when weighting it will perform the task just as well if not better..

as for the rest, entertaining but of little help. if you feel i have a vendetta against anyone on this thread, report me to a mod. if not please don't spoil a useful and informative thread.

Lmao a vendetta! If blaming me makes it easier for you to cut and run then so be it, far be it from me to expect a decent, well presented and informed response.

Darkstar.

 

[Darkstar]

One thing though which i am trying to find information on which i would really appreiciate if anyone can help me out about, is what exactly does heat do to cellulose and can you detroy it or lower its content in fruit and veg by heating the fruit/veg? What kind of temperature would you need to expose to the fruit/veg to have any effect on the cellulose in it?

I haven't really thought about this until now, and i'm now wondering, will heating fruit and veg like cucumber actually help break down the cellulose in foods like cucumber? Or would you have to heat the fruit/veg to such a degree to have any effect on the cellulose that it is likely to turn the fruit/veg into mush and so make it unpractical to feed it to the fish?

As human beings we can't digest cellulose, but it is important as a form of roughage in our diet to help give us a smooth digestion. If you had a fish though, would feeding any type of fruit and veg to the fish which can eat have the positive effect of helping clear any constipation the fish is suffering from? Most people recommend feeding pea's to fish which have constipation, and as far as i am aware it is the cellulose and fibre that helps clear the fishes gut out and so gets rid of the constipation- so in theory, cucumber could make as good a replacement for pea's when treating constipation in fish etc.

There's a lot of interesting questions here, many of which I do not have the answers to, yet. However I may well be able to find the answers to some of them...I'll have a look into it and let you know.

Darkstar.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

can get cucumber to sink without weights, or cooking?

.

as for the rest, entertaining but of little help. if you feel i have a vendetta against anyone on this thread, report me to a mod. if not please don't spoil a useful and informative thread.

Lmao a vendetta! If blaming me makes it easier for you to cut and run then so be it, far be it from me to expect a decent, well presented and informed response.

Darkstar.

Hey Darkstar and Boboboy, i think you two should cool off a bit, if you keep at each other like this things will only turn for the worse and the thread will be likely to get closed. IMHO you are both intelligent and knowledgable members of this forum, i don't doubt that you have both made your opinions in this thread based on a lot of thinking on the subject, so you should maybe show a little more respect to each other as neither of you are dumb or ignorant and i think both of you have made a lot of good points in this thread, whether you agree or disagree with each other on those points or not .

This thread is a really good thread, and at the very least, i am learning things from it and it is making me ask questions and think more on the subject, so it would be good to remain polite and civil towards each other so the thread can stay open and any disagreements or questions raised in the thread can reach a peaceful and civil/polite conclusion here etc .

 

[Esfa]

erm.. 2 days? Scary arguemnts

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

erm.. 2 days? Scary arguemnts

Well the topic of feeding fish and what to feed them exactly and more is a very important subject and deserves thorough discussion, there is a lot to learn and discuss even about just the feeding of fruit like cucumber alone .

 

[Darkstar]

I get your point Tokis and it's taken onboard as I certainly don't want to see the thread closed either, but at the same time I don't think I've said anything which would warrant a 'cooling off'. I've been as polite as I can, infact far more polite than I usually am....

Darkstar.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I get your point Tokis and it's taken onboard as I certainly don't want to see the thread closed either, but at the same time I don't think I've said anything which would warrant a 'cooling off'. I've been as polite as I can, infact far more polite than I usually am....

Darkstar.

I know you haven't said anything unpolite or bad towards each other, but i think you guys obviously have some really strong conflicting opinions against each over on what has been said in this thread on this subject, i can feel the friction between you guys words coming off my laptops screen just sitting here lol .
(I had a thread closed recently, not because anything bad was actually said in it (on the whole it was a very polite and civilised thread), but i think the debate and things said in the thread just got too heated and fustrated for the mods comfort and so one of them closed it before anything took a turn for the worse. Both of you just be careful over what you say towards each other, lets make sure this thread stays open, because as before said i think you are both intelligent people and have a lot of good points to say and make etc )

 

[raptorrex]

it is the cut edges of the veg. contact with air causes some losses, contact with water causes more. the nutrients are not destroyed, well during boiling anyway, but leached into the water, where they survive. unless you use the cooking water they are still lost. tearing the veg allows the veg to break along natural lines limiting though not eliminating the amounts lost. heating simply makes the fibers expand, allowing the nutrients to leach out quicker.

cant help on the cellulose though as far as i know it needs pressure or chemical/bacterial action.

the Journal of fish biology published in 1980, by G. J. H. Lindsay, J. E. Harris (1980) has a small section on the effect of fibre on fish digestion, so that may be worth a look, got a few other bits to look at too!!

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

cant help on the cellulose though as far as i know it needs pressure or chemical/bacterial action.

So there actually might not be any point in me microwaving the cucumber in the hope that it might help break down the cellulose in the cucumber? Apart from cellulose issue question, is there any other point in heating cucumber apart from maybe making it a little softer and so easier for the pleco to eat quicker?

 

[Inchworm]

I'm getting complaints about the personal conflict on this otherwise excellent thread. If it must continue, please conduct it via PMs. I'd hate to have to come back and cut the thread up or close it.

Inchworm