Guppies, unsure of behavior and sex?

[Vengified]

I'll put a little background first, as I am sure it would be asked:

Recently, on Valentine' Day, my wife and I bought two Guppies (labeled as Cobra Guppies in the store), and a cherry shrimp for a small 3.5 gallon tank for my 4 year old, to see if he would like fish. We had the tank hidden for 2 weeks with everything but the fish, with filter/heat running. I don't have a test kit yet, and although I'm unsure of the credibility or specific details, the fish store tested my water and says it's fine.
We do intend to upgrade to a 10-20 gallon as of now, because my son couldn't be more excited and more in love with his fish, Sophie, Roney, and his shrimp, Raphael. Lol.

Now, my questions are: Can you tell me if the fish store is incorrect in telling me I have two females? The colors seem like a male and female to me, their shape is indiscernable to me. Second question is, their behavior is crazy, but I'm not sure if it's normal, or bad? It seems like courting or playing or fighting, but I'm not sure?

My previous experience with fish is just feeder fish, for 3 turtles, in a 8 foot pond, built into my father's living room, when I was a child, so I am fairly limited on the fish aquarium knowledge. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated! I really don't wanna explain to my 4 year old, that daddy messed up, and let his babies die!
I embedded two short videos, they have sound, so be warned. The short 8 seconds is just one strange thing they do. The longer one is 16 seconds, and is when the red one (Roney) chases the silver one(Sophie). And I think I attached a pic, sorry for the blur.

 

[hobby5]

Welcome to TFF!

Those are for sure 2 males. They are fighting for dominance. The behaviour of Roney in the second video is called itching. Fish do that if they have some problems with there skin.

The tank is way too small, to keep them permanently. If you upgrade I recommend going as large as you can. 20G should be minimum. But ask here again BEFORE you start (buy anything), we can give you tons of input

 

[Crispin]

Those are both male Guppies. The behaviour is normal, when you put two males together they tend to duel each other. When you have a bigger tank it should calm down somewhat as they'll have spare and more places to hide out and avoid each other.

The second video I can see some flashing (where fish try to rub themselves against something to relieve an itch). This could just be due to the micro bubbles you can see or it could be due to ammonia in the water. When the shop tested your water, did they give you any values of what your Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate were at? Often times they'll say it's good when it really isn't! Did you cycle the aquarium before adding the fish or did you just fill it with water and let it sit?

 

[Vengified]

To answer about the values of ammonia etc, no, they simply said "Your water looks good." So, I couldn't give you values. I have work tomorrow morning, and am stopping by the pet store to get testing equipment. From what I have read and gathered, it is best to get a test "kit" as opposed to strips, correct? I wanna be sure to get whatever is most accurate.

As for cycling, I've noticed people writing about it, but haven't found an explicit definition? I don't have plants, as tank is small, and as mentioned, unable to test, but I have done water changes, and have had the filter going since we filled it, 2 weeks before adding fish. Our tap water is so chlrinated or chloraminated, that you can smell and taste it, so we purchased "Crystal Geyser" brand spring water, and used that to fill it, and have used it for every water change. I had 4 water changes of 50% before fish, and have done 3 of 25% in the 6 days since fish have been put in.

I did mention we had one cherry shrimp, but forgot to add, that the original shrimp, died two days after putting them all in, which is when the store tested the water, said it was fine, but said that my tank may have been too cold. At that point in time, I had no heater, and water was about 71°F, so I immediately went and got a small heater, and now the water has stayed 78-80°F for the past 4 days. That first shrimp, was hiding on day 1, active day 2, then from one hour to the next, he was dead, pulled him out within 2 hours of him kicking the bucket. The second shrimp has been going strong since we got him, and seems a LOT braver, and more active and is not scared of the guppies at all. Fish store said it was probably stress.

I had done a little research before getting the fish, and read in numerous places "1 inch of fish per gallon" and it had opposition as well, but seemed more prominent than most other guidelines. In addition to that, the fish store girl, told me her daughter had 2 guppies and 1 shrimp in a 2.5gallon tank (1 gallon less than ours), and that I could have had another fish, or 2 more shrimp in ours, but I wanted to start small, in case I messed up. Didn't want a mini genocide on my hands.

Sorry if I write too much, it's just the way I am, thorough. So that's the info I have for now. Thank you for your input so far! I do appreciate it! I will get a test kit tomorrow afternoon, and update with the actual values of the tank. And wife and I get tax refunds in 3 days, so we will probably start shopping for a tank of some sort, as well as all the stuff that goes with it, like filters, air stones, etc., so any suggestions are very helpful! Hopefully we can find a nice one, that is built on top of, or comes with a cabinet, as our shelf/table space is limited.

Thanks again!

 

[seangee]

Hi and welcome to TFF.
It certainly is worth taking time to read some of the sticky threads in the "Beginner Starting Point" section of the forum. Keeping fish is both rewarding and fun and something I hope you and your son will enjoy for years to come.

FWIW if possible I would find a different LFS (local fish shop) where they actually know about and care for fish. No idea about the staff in your store but determining the sex of guppies is about the easiest task the staff will ever be called on to perform. Sure you can learn, but an aquarium is a closed system and I like to know that my LFS is doing everything possible to protect my tank from disease / infection when I buy a fish from them.

 

[Essjay]

Please get a bigger tank as soon as possible. Stocking is not just about having so many inches of fish per gallon but having a tank that suits a fish's needs. Seriously Fish is the best website out there because it is written by experts not people who just keep fish. Their minimum tank size for guppies is 18 x 12 x 12 inches. http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/poecilia-reticulata/
The sooner you can get that new tank, the better. Your guppies are at high risk of dying in such a small tank. Sorry to sound cruel but can your 4 year old cope with that?


Fish excrete ammonia, which is toxic to fish (and shrimps). In a cycled tank, there is a colony of bacteria which 'eats' this ammonia and 'poops out' nitrite. Nitrite is also toxic to fish, and a cycled tank also has a colony of bacteria which 'eats' nitrite and 'poops out' nitrate. Nitrate is not as toxic as the other two and with a cycled tank we do weekly water changes to remove it.
A brand new tank does not have these bacteria colonies; there are some bacteria but not nearly enough - the water company adds chlorine or chloramine to kill bacteria but a few manage to survive. We need to remove the chlorine/chloramine, and encourage the few bacteria we have to multiply by feeding them. It takes several weeks to grow enough bacteria.
The safest way is called fishless cycling, which means adding ammonia to the tank to simulate fish waste to grow enough bacteria before getting any fish. However, you have fish already so you can't do that. You are doing a fish-in cycle, which uses the ammonia from the fish to feed the bacteria.
You need to buy your own test kit, preferably a liquid reagent one, and test the water in this tiny tank at least twice a day. You will need to test too frequently to rely on a shop to do the tests. Because the tank is so small ammonia will build up fast, and then nitrite will build up fast. Test for both ammonia and nitrite, and if either of them show a reading above zero, do a water change. Ammonia will show first because the fish are excreting that continually. Once ammonia eaters begin to increase in number they will make nitrite, and that will start showing up after a few days or even weeks. Then ammonia will go up more slowly and eventually stay at zero, but nitrite will still show up. You need to keep on with water changes until nitrite also stays at zero.


Once you get your bigger tank put in some live plants. We can advise on easy plants. Plants use ammonia as fertiliser, and if there are enough of them they will take up all the ammonia made by your fish. Floating plants are particularly good for this.



There is a lot more we need to discuss, but fish keeping is a steep learning curve. Once you have got your head around the need for a bigger tank, and testing the water we can move on to other factors.

 

[Vengified]

Thank you all for your advice! And I do not think it's harsh to state the fact that the tank is small and I need to test. Like I said, I don't want to explain to my son that I messed up and killed his "babies" so the info is taken for what it is, and not as an attack.

I'm at work now, but I DID go get an "API Master Test Kit" which I hope is sufficient? Kind of spendy, but the fish shop I went to said it's the way to go. Speaking of, I had purchased fish at Petco originally, and went to a dedicated fish shop, that I know has been around for over 30 years, as my dad took me there as a child. They were a wealth of knowledge as well, and the woman who helped me is co-owner with her husband. I have confidence with all the fish they had, they know their stuff! We watched them feed a nurse shark they have had for 23 years!

As for aquarium, tax returns to be deposited tomorrow, so we will be purchasing a tank, stand, filter, heater, plants, everything we need for a fully functional tank, this weekend. If you guys have any specific brands, or types of filtration, or any advice, I'm open to it. I will go look through the forums too, and see what has been suggested. And the previously linked guppy website as well, already have bookmarked in my phone for later.

When I get home in a few hours, I'll see if I can figure out the test kit, lol (I'm sure I can, it was explained, just all new to me) and I will post the results of it all here. To add to the chloaramine/chlorine thing, I did NOT use tap water, I used spring water, of which I know did not have any chlorine or the like added. My tap water has so much chlorine, I won't even drink it, and I drink upwards of 200 ounces per day. I was not about to make fish live in it.

Thank you all again! I'll get some water test results up as soon as I get home and do the tests!

 

[Vengified]

I am about to head home, and do the testing, but I wanted to add, for anyone out there thinking I'm a total dunce and ran into this knowing I had zero knowledge, that it's not the case. Or so I thought. I was sure I knew enough, to keep a few small fish, acclimating, need filter, watch temp, let tank "settle", and do water changes before adding fish (which is what I thought cycling was).

My dad built an 8 foot pond in our living room when I was 7 years old, I'm now 33, so I grew up with fish and turtles living, growing, and thriving in that pond, and not even one single time, did we ever do a test, add dechlorinator, or enzymes, or ANYTHING except water, fish, and fish food to the pond (granted he is on well water). I spoke with my father, and he did not do any of this without me either, it was just never done, and we never had issues. Had red eared slider turtles, goldfish, koi, guppies, tetras, plecos, and even a catfish that grew almost 2 feet lomy! We even had a goldfish, which my stepbrother threw a steel tipped dart, straight through it's body (on accident, long story) and he took it out, put super glue on the hole, and the fish grew and grew and lived for years!

In short, I've had fish of different types, and never performed any of these "extra measures" and never had unexplained death, disease, or issues at all. So when we got my son fish, I was confident that I was prepared enough, to take care of 2 fish. I admit fault, and am eager to learn and grow as a fish grandfather. Lol. And just for kicks, here are some pictures, of photos, of my previous fish "tank"

 

[Essjay]

The API master kit is what most of us have. Just be sure to shake nitrate bottle #2 more than the instructions say.

You'll find that fish keeping has changed a lot over the last couple of decades - our understanding of the nitrogen cycle, and the needs of the bacteria involved; the needs of fish, both water and tank requirements for example.

 

[seangee]

Great news on the new aquarium. When you re-home your fish if possible put the old filter into the new aquarium alongside the new one so that you get the benefit of any cycling that has already happened. If this is not possible take the media from the old filter and put it into your new filter. Don't wash it (rinsing in tank water is ok) and keep the time that the media is not in a running filter to a minimum.

 

[Vengified]

Again, I wanna say thank you to everyone for your information, I am taking it all to heart, and applying it.

I did the testing last night, felt horrible, freaked out, and did about 75% water change immediately. Results>
pH-7.5
Ammonia-2.0ppm
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-0
<And I did know water needs conditioner, just in case there was chlorine, and water should be same temp, it was 77°F so I sat the jug in front of a space heater and kept checking it until it was 80°F, before adding it, and did it slowly, just in case. I will check levels again in a bit, after I take kid to school.

Not sure if I should do more water changing, depending on levels, or let it go for a bit and see if they equalize to where they should?

I am definitely putting everything I'm being told to use, so again, I appreciate it. I have OCD, which makes it impossible for me to ignore new information, and forces me to be meticulous with everything. I even made a spreasdsheet for testing pH, Ammonia, etc:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...YiJdsBpSM_a6nusyolRZYj8v1qA/edit?usp=drivesdk

In case anyone wants to use it, as I searched hours to find something, and couldn't find one to suit my needs.

Thanks again to everyone, and sorry again for the long posting! Don't flame me too hard for not knowing I needed to be a chemist for keeping guppies, Lol!

 

[seangee]

Ammonia and Nitrite both NEED to be 0. You might find you need to change more than once per day initially. When your ammonia gets to 0 your nitrite will start climbing. When that gets to 0 you are over the worst and can start adding more fish (slowly).

Getting them into a bigger home asap will reduce how often you need to change water as it will take longer for the levels to rise. Personally I wouldn't be feeding them more than once a week at this stage.

 

[seangee]

Oh and don't panic
Once you're over the hump the regular maintenance routine is actually quite easy and doesn't need to take much time.

 

[Vengified]

Thanks guys! Yea, from the info I have gathered, Ammonia and Nitrate always 0, and if Nitrate is 0-0.25, that is ok? Is that right?

I tested again shortly after that last message, Ammonia @ 0.5, the Nitrite/Nitrate @ 0, and pH went up to 8.0. Im guessing cuz I had partial tap water mixed with bottled, and LFS told me that our local water nearly always runs at 8.0. So after that testing, did a 25% change.

Just checked again, about 12 hours since last check, and now Ammonia is somewhere in between 0 and 0.25. Should I change again, or leave it? Also, Nitrite isn't quite 0, but it's not quite 0.25 either. Nitrate still 0, and pH still 8.0

And as for bigger tank, wife WAS arguing (NOT angrily), that we wouldn't have room, and didn't need it, and I told her if she wanted to do all the testing, all the water changes, and then tell our son why they died if they do, then we don't need a bigger tank, and she changed her mind, lol. I have figured out a location anyways. Now we just need a tank, stand, and all the parts that go with it.

Also, since my tank isn't cycled obviously, but my fish aren't in a great environment, and they are fighting, which would be the lesser of 2 evils? Leave them in little tank, and find info on cycling big tank without fish? Or put fish in big tank, and cycle with them in it?

We will be getting new tank in 2 days, guaranteed. Then we just gotta decide, eventually, if we will get females, or if 5 males will be ok to NOT fight? Cuz the 2 boys seem to be getting more and more aggressive. No fin holes yet, but they are definitely getting more physical. See video below.

 

[Essjay]

When you get the new tank, move the fish over straight away. If you leave them in the small tank you'll be doing a fishless cycle on the new one and a fish-in cycle on the small one. In a larger volume of water it will take longer for the ammonia, and then nitrite, to build up.
If you put live plants in the new tank, particularly floating plants, that will help enormously because plants use ammonia as fertiliser. If the plants tank it up it can't be converted into nitrite.

Once the tank is cycled, add more fish a few at a time. Too many at once will overwhelm the filter bacteria - though if you do get live plants they should cope with the extra ammonia. Livebearers need at least 2 females for every male, so that means 4 or 5, or even more, females for the two males you now have. Unfortunately, that means 4, or 5 batches of fry every month. Some of them will be eaten, but before long the tank will be very overpopulated with guppies. I would just get more males.

With a high pH a lot of the ammonia will be in the toxic form, so you do need to do water changes whenever you see a reading for that above zero. Nitrite above zero also means a water change.