Fish Not Swimming

[Squigs]

Hello

I've only had my fishtank for about 4 or 5 few months and I'm hoping anyone can help me as I'm panicking a bit right now.

Everything has been fine up to today when I found one of my goldfish at the bottom of the tank. Some of his scales appear 'hurt', his finns are lowered than usual, he did not eat at all, even though there was food falling around him (I mix flakes with their water before adding to the tank) and this might sound weird but he looks thinner and smaller than usual. I can't see any other marks on him and the other fish in the tank seem fine. I've just gone to check on him again and he's now lying slightly sideways. I'd added some sort of solution to help sick goldfish about an hour ago but I'm not sure it's helping...

Further info:
Size of aquarium - 21 L/ about 5 1/2 gallons
Types of fish - 4 fantail goldfish (2"/3") and 1 smaller fish (sorry not sure what it is but it measures less than an inch)
Filtration used and how do you clean it and how often - not sure about type of filter. It's a black box atttached to the top of the tank, it reminds me a bit of a fountain. I need to replace the cartrigde every 3/4 weeks. I clean the fish tank every 3/4 weeks, remove the debri from the gravel using a syphon, normally it takes about 1/3 of the water out, clean algae using a specialized sponge, clean plans in the dirty water and place them back. Treat tap water before adding to the tank (chlorine and nitrate). Also replace a pint of water every week.
Test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph both from the tap and tank - I've never done any testing so I'm sorry abut I don't know these.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

 

[fluttermoth]

Hi Squigs, welcome to the forum.

Sorry to hear you're having problems with your fish.

You have three main issues going on here.

The first is that your tank is hugely overstocked. Fantails need 40l per fish, with a minimum tank size of a 100l, so your fish really need something like a 160/180l tank. I'm afraid you'll have to get a larger tank (there are some great bargains to be had second hand if you look around) or re-home the fish, or they will die. You could pehaps think about buying a cheap plastic storage box as in interim measure; the larger the volume of water you can get the fish into the better; fish don't actually need to be in glass tanks, that's just for our viewing convenience.

Secondly; there are good bacteria that grow in the filter that eat the wastes from the fish and help stop the fish poisoning themselves. Every time you change the cartridge in your filter, you are throwing all those good bacteria away. Telling you they need to be replaced is just a ploy by the manufacurers to get more money off you. Stop throwing them out and instead just rinse them in some old tank water to remove the actual poo; you don't want to clean them too thoroughly or you'll wash away some of the bacteria.

Lastly, you're not doing enough water changs, so toxic substances are building up in the water. As one of your fish is ill and your tank isn't 'cycled' (ie, doesn't have a colony of good bacteria in the filter), I think you should do 50% every day for a week, cut back on the feeding (a fish's stomach is only the size of it's eye, so they don't need much at all) and hopefully you'll see some improvement while you think about what you want to do.

If you could post a pic of your other fish (you'll need to upload it to a hosting site, like Photobucket or Flickr and paste the IMG code here) we'll identify it for you; it's probably not suitable as a tank mate for your goldies (not many fish are!).

Do please post again if there's anything else we can help with, or if I haven't explained things clearly enough

 

[KittyKat]

Do you replace all the filter media every 3-4 weeks? What are you water parameters (ammonia, nitrite, etc)?

Fancy goldfish should have aquariums which are at least 4 ft long to live in because they can grow to over 20 cm long. A 21 litre aquarium is too small even for a young one in the short term. This is probably part of the problem.

What do you feed it and how often?

 

[Squigs]

Hello!

Thank you very much for your replies and suggestions.

Since posting here I found a local place that was willing to test my water for me and the guy was slightly puzzled as the nitrate levels were a bit higher than they should be but not high enough to be causing any problems. He suggested that maybe the levels were much higher before the water change. Well, I don't think I'll ever find out because when I got back home the fish was dead

I'm obviously disappointed (and even sad, I liked that fish!!) but I still have 4 fish left so I'll try my best to care for them better!

So, as for the issues raised by Fluttermoth:

Problem number 1) Believe it or not I was advised by the sales person that the tank would be enough for that number of fish! I'd found out since that they were overcrowded and I've trying to get a new tank for them through freecycle as right now I can't really afford it. To be honest, I hadn't realised how overcrowded they are. I've just been given a 57L tank and I was hoping that would be enough (I'd been told since that each needs 20L) but clearly that's not true either!! I think it'll probably best for me to buy a big plastic box for now and place them there until I can get a big enough tank. So that will be solved shortly. So what size of tank should I be looking for now that I only have 3 fish and a half?

Problem number 2) Filter - the filter I use is Marina i25 Internal Aquarium Filter and the manufacturers recommend changing the cartridge every 4 weeks. I'd tried to clean the cartridge up and use it again but it wouldn't work, for some reason the propeller was moving but the water wasn't going through it. Am I right in thinking this is not an appropriate filter??

Problem number 3) I always change the cartrigde before I change the water so the cartridge has been there since last Friday. Will that be enough for a new colony to build or should I do the water changes still?

As for my other fish, here's a picture: http/www.flickr.com/photos/67340149@N02/6130216584/ is it going to be ok with the goldfish or should I keep them separate?

KittyKat, I'm not sure about the exact numbers for ammonia etc. The guy at the pet store did the test but he's not told me what the numbers were. As for feeding, I give them two pinches of flakes twice a day. I was told that they should only be fed what they can eat in 2 minutes, so I've more or less learned how much it is and try to give them that. I mix the flakes into a little bit of water from the tank in a cup before pouring the whole thing into the water. Is this right?

Thank you!

Squigs

 

[KittyKat]

Problem number 1) Believe it or not I was advised by the sales person that the tank would be enough for that number of fish! I'd found out since that they were overcrowded and I've trying to get a new tank for them through freecycle as right now I can't really afford it. To be honest, I hadn't realised how overcrowded they are. I've just been given a 57L tank and I was hoping that would be enough (I'd been told since that each needs 20L) but clearly that's not true either!! I think it'll probably best for me to buy a big plastic box for now and place them there until I can get a big enough tank. So that will be solved shortly. So what size of tank should I be looking for now that I only have 3 fish and a half?

We believe you, at least I see people come here with this problem every day. …half…? How did you get a half? I recommend at least a 120 cm long, by 30-40 cm front to back, by 30 cm tall aquarium, but the bigger the better. For example, 120 cm aquariums often come in a 200-240 litre volume, which is great. Obviously this will take more than four fish (for example, it could take more goldfish, then some other fish like weather loaches). I suggest 120 cm long so the fish have some space to swim, but even a smaller tank would be better in the short term. I recommend that you keep a larger group of goldfish because males can be very persistent when they try to breed, so it's better if they have a few females to harass, rather than 1-2.

Problem number 2) Filter - the filter I use is Marina i25 Internal Aquarium Filter and the manufacturers recommend changing the cartridge every 4 weeks. I'd tried to clean the cartridge up and use it again but it wouldn't work, for some reason the propeller was moving but the water wasn't going through it. Am I right in thinking this is not an appropriate filter??

I've had a quick search for the filter and the new cartridges explain why your fish are still alive: they contain zeolite, which will take up ammonia and nitrite. This is quite a nasty thing for manufacturers to do because it means that the filter is never cycled and the fish rely on the replacement cartridges to survive. Unfortunately, I have no idea why the filter does not work after you clean it. Ideally, you would be using an external filter which is rated to 2* the tank volume because goldfish are messy… but I recommend that you wait until you sort out the final tank before making such a big investment.

Problem number 3) I always change the cartrigde before I change the water so the cartridge has been there since last Friday. Will that be enough for a new colony to build or should I do the water changes still?

It takes 4-8 weeks for the colony to build up during a fish-less cycle. You are doing a fish-in cycle, which takes 6-12+ weeks, more commonly. Also, the bacteria are unlikely to start building up in serious numbers until the zeolite is used up.

As for my other fish, here's a picture: http/www.flickr.com/photos/67340149@N02/6130216584/ is it going to be ok with the goldfish or should I keep them separate?

Is that a white cloud mountain minnow? It's a coolwater fish, same as goldfish, and fast enough to not be eaten (normally). It is also a schooling fish (see my explanation: http/aquariumadventure.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/deciding-on-fish-numbers/)

KittyKat, I'm not sure about the exact numbers for ammonia etc. The guy at the pet store did the test but he's not told me what the numbers were. As for feeding, I give them two pinches of flakes twice a day. I was told that they should only be fed what they can eat in 2 minutes, so I've more or less learned how much it is and try to give them that. I mix the flakes into a little bit of water from the tank in a cup before pouring the whole thing into the water. Is this right?

Fancy goldfish have messed up digestive systems, so it's probably better to feed them all they will completely finish in 30-60 seconds, 1-2 times per day. I recommend that you feed prepared foods on 4 days per week, 2 days per week should be boiled and de-shelled frozen peas and one day per week should be without food. It usually doesn't matter if you mix the flakes with the food or not, but goldfish have been known to "eat" air, which can encourage digestive system problems, when eating from the surface, although the feeding regime I suggest should prevent that.

p.s. get that guy to write down the *exact* numbers on paper. In my experience, from what I have seen on this forum, "it's ok" can mean "your fish are swimming in a toxic soup". Also, it is good practice to keep a diary/records of the aquarium.

p.p.s. you should be buying your own test kit anyway, as soon as you can afford it. A liquid one which does ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH is a good start, one which also does KH and GH is better.

 

[Squigs]

Thank you for the reply, KittyKat.

Can I just check a few things? I'm sorry if these are a bit daft but I haven't got a clue...
1) How do I know if my fish are male or female?
2) You're right, the small fish I have is a white cloud mountain minnow he's my 'half fish' as he's half the size. Am I right in thinking that as he's a schooling fish he's better off if I re-home him?
3) I can afford a testing kit so I'll get that but how often should I be testing the water?

 

[fluttermoth]

It's quite tricky to sex goldfish. In the spring (spawning time) the males will get 'tubercles' that look like white pimples; mostly on the gill covers, but sometimes on the rest of the head. They don't spread onto the body, so don't think your fish have whitespot!

It would be better to re-home the white cloud. They are a shoaling fish, and goldies will eat them if they can fit them in their mouths, so they're not good tankmates.

As you're in a fish in cycle, you'll need to be testing for ammonia and nitrites every day.

And, whatever the manufacturer says, stop replacing the filter cartridges! You won't get them completely clean, but that dirt is the bacteria you want. Only ever rinse them gently in old tank water. If you can replace the cartridges you have now with some sponges, that would be for the best. Pond filter sponge is pretty cheap and can be cut down to fit you filter.

You will eventually, if you keep the goldies, have to upgrade; they're very messy eaters and really need an external canister filter, but the biggest you can get, bearing in mind that amount of media rather than flow is what's important for goldfish.

 

[Squigs]

Thanks for that, Fluttermoth. I'll test the water daily and try to get hold of some pond filter sponge as well. I'm not sure it'll work to be honest as I found out about the need to change cartridges because the water wouldn't go up the filter, it was as if the cartridge had saturated and there wasn't anything to support the water going up from the base even though the propeller was moving, if that makes sense. But I'll have a go anyway.

what do you mean by 'amount of media rather than the flow?

 

[KittyKat]

Thanks for that, Fluttermoth. I'll test the water daily and try to get hold of some pond filter sponge as well. I'm not sure it'll work to be honest as I found out about the need to change cartridges because the water wouldn't go up the filter, it was as if the cartridge had saturated and there wasn't anything to support the water going up from the base even though the propeller was moving, if that makes sense. But I'll have a go anyway.

Probably one of the sections you don't have access to became blocked. This won't be a problem with sponges, I think. What fluttermoth didn't mention is that ammonia and nitrite must remain as low as possible, and should never be allowed to rise to 0.25 ppm. It might help to feed only every other day during cycling.

what do you mean by 'amount of media rather than the flow?

The media is where the bacteria which convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate live.

But personally, I disagree: both are equally important with goldfish as the filter should be able to pick up the poop as well, not only process the ammonia and nitrite.

 

[Squigs]

I've not got a clue how to quote when I've been quoted, so I'll just have to write.

Ok, I'll feed them every other day and will keep an eye on the numbers for ammonia and nitrite.

I think I might leave the choice of filter for later and seek wise advice again when I eventually get the tank, hopefully it won't be long

Thank you VERY much for all the advice and tips. I really appreciate it!

 

[KittyKat]

I've not got a clue how to quote when I've been quoted, so I'll just have to write.

You can click the "Reply" button under the post or click "MultiQuote" on a number of posts, then "Add Reply" which is below all the posts.

 

[Squigs]

You can click the "Reply" button under the post or click "MultiQuote" on a number of posts, then "Add Reply" which is below all the posts.

Thank you... but how do I only quote you and not my previous post? I tried deleting my quote on the reply box but that didn't work

Edit: It worked now so maybe I just need to be careful with what I delete! Thanks!