First Dog - advice needed

I'm not a fan of bathing dogs unless they need it. I did say that for the first 3 months I would do monthly as part of his socialisation / training. I lasted 4 days till his first - despite the fact that he was professionally groomed the day I collected him (breeder is a groomer). I have resisted since then but he is rarely the pure white little fluffy cloud we brought home. He is currently working on 2 passages to New Zealand in his play pen and loves to lie in these. It no longer matters of its been raining because right now the water table is at the same level as the lawn :eek:
Oh don't worry, I don't over bathing them! Most of the winter they just get damp rather than muddy, so it's a good rubdown with a towel and I even own doggy dressing gowns :blush:

If just a little muddy, it dries and brushes out. They only get a full on bath if they're completely coated in mud, rolled in something stinky, or after they've had the rubdowns and mud brushed off enough times that they look more grey than black and white and smell too "doggy", so once a month or so during winter, with the occasional extra if they've had a particularly exciting day!

But it means a lot of dog towels from twice daily drying, so more laundry and general house cleaning to manage them in winter.
 
Not to mention it's not worth bathing them thoroughly and prettying them up too much in winter, since they'll only be going on their next walk within a few hours and immediately ruin it! They don't stay beautifully cleaned and groomed for very long at all in bad weather! :lol: Usually I'll just use a tub of warm water to stand them in in the kitchen to wash their feet and legs, wipe off the worst of the mud then towel dry. Brush coat once they dry, then a comb through to detangle feathering and slicker brush to remove excess dead coat, and done. :) Lots of grooming involved with long coated and double coated dogs. You and @GaryE are in a similar boat when it comes to the grooming, although hopefully matting won't be a worry with your Shepherd, just a lot of brushing out loose coat, I'd guess?
 
Oh he loves being combed and cuddled. His first trick will almost certainly be "play dead" - cos that's how I pronounce tummy tickle :p. The lab was the same and the biggest challenge was stopping her from flopping upside down when it was grooming time - so working really hard on STAND with Siri.
I'm afraid tomorrow is bath day. He rolled in something foul after dinner and I have to spend the evening in the room with him watching Netflix :(
 
I'm not a fan of bathing dogs unless they need it. I did say that for the first 3 months I would do monthly as part of his socialisation / training. I lasted 4 days till his first - despite the fact that he was professionally groomed the day I collected him (breeder is a groomer). I have resisted since then but he is rarely the pure white little fluffy cloud we brought home. He is currently working on 2 passages to New Zealand in his play pen and loves to lie in these. It no longer matters of its been raining because right now the water table is at the same level as the lawn :eek:
On the other hand teaching your dog how to get to the bathtub, voluntarily and stay there is priceless. I have an AUO, she is 10 this year and in her second year or so, she kept getting vicious belly infections, of some yeast sorts, the only way to treat would be to shave the belly and bathe, each day, with some shampoo that absolutely had to stay on for 10 minutes, and this would go on for days or weeks, a break, and then back to the bathing again.
Cannot appreciate how much I was glad I made a list when she was a puppy and simply trained her to accept all situations, paws inspections, teeth inspections, bathing, public transits, other dogs, cats, bikes, boats, you name it, we tried it and she is so much easier to work with. Especially compared with our second dog, a covid adoption one, she was already one year old with rough history, part beagle, part satan I assume. Everything is a melodrama with her, even such a stupid thing as paw washing, you would thing the world is ending or something :)
 
While the dog is a puppy, pick it up and hold it every day. This establishes dominance. No matter how big the dog gets, it will think you can always handle it like that.
 
On the other hand teaching your dog how to get to the bathtub, voluntarily and stay there is priceless. I have an AUO, she is 10 this year and in her second year or so, she kept getting vicious belly infections, of some yeast sorts, the only way to treat would be to shave the belly and bathe, each day, with some shampoo that absolutely had to stay on for 10 minutes, and this would go on for days or weeks, a break, and then back to the bathing again.
Cannot appreciate how much I was glad I made a list when she was a puppy and simply trained her to accept all situations, paws inspections, teeth inspections, bathing, public transits, other dogs, cats, bikes, boats, you name it, we tried it and she is so much easier to work with. Especially compared with our second dog, a covid adoption one, she was already one year old with rough history, part beagle, part satan I assume. Everything is a melodrama with her, even such a stupid thing as paw washing, you would thing the world is ending or something :)

Oh, I agree with this! My dog doesn't love being bathed, but she tolerates it well, and I taught her as a pup to jump into the bathtub on cue, which helped a lot when lifting a medium or large sized dog!

While I don't like to overbathe dogs just for the sake of it, since it does strip the oils from the coat, it's undeniable that they will need bathing at times no matter what. Generally, at least quarterly, just to refresh the coat and reduce that "doggy" smell, but also if they roll in something disgusting, as many dogs love to do, if they've gone adventuring and been in and out of the sea, rivers, muddy areas, or even walking in bad weather - grit and salt used on snowy and icy roads, not to mention people using poisonous antifreeze when defrosting their cars - all of that can irritate paws.

My dogs were trained to tolerate being bathed, and also used an old washing up bowl just to wash and dry paws/legs/maybe belly in the kitchen when we return from walks and the roads have been salted, or they have very muddy paws, but don't otherwise need a full of bath.

Then as you say, some medical conditions require frequent bathing, so it's well worth getting them used to it when they're young. The hyper zoomies that most dogs get when they get out of the bath is usually fun too! :lol:
 
While the dog is a puppy, pick it up and hold it every day. This establishes dominance. No matter how big the dog gets, it will think you can always handle it like that.
I think that ship may have sailed for me, 6 month old and weighs 23.5 kg :/
 
I think that ship may have sailed for me, 6 month old and weighs 23.5 kg :/

Honestly, that dominance style of training isn't great anyway. It's long been debunked.

I much prefer, and get better results, by using positive only methods. No need to get physical with the dog, especially "to establish dominance", no need to smack a dog, hit with a newspaper, rub their nose in the mess if they toilet indoors when toilet training... those are old school methods based on bad science, and don't teach the dog anything good. All they do is damage the relationship and bond, and confuse the dog.

Dogs do establish dominance with each other, and can push boundaries with their humans at certain ages of development that need more careful/stern handling, but they don't want to be "alpha", don't want to dominate you, and there's no need to pin dogs down, pick them up, or physically punish them for something they likely don't even remember doing. Dogs live in the moment, so coming home and finding an accident on the carpet they did hours ago, then punishing them for it, doesn't help anything. Shouting, physically punishing, pinning them down or picking them up doesn't do anything to help. They won't even remember the accident, so punishing them hours later only confuses them, as do those old fashioned bullying type "tips". They only confuse the dog, and damage the bond and trust you want to develop.

Sorry @sharkweek178 , this isn't a criticism of you, I have a lot of respect for you! And your fish knowledge. But I strongly disagree about the dominance nonsense. Dogs will assess each others level of dominance and sort a pecking order, but if you act like a calm leader and show them what you want from them, then reward them for doing it, they're much more likely to respect you as a leader, trust that you can handle scary or strange situations, and develop a stronger bond of trust based on understanding and communicating what you want from them, rather than shouting or physically punishing them.

The dominance, alpha nonsense is based on a study someone did on wolf behaviour, which was widely read and then interpreted by dog trainers, and resulted in a lot of bad training for a long time. The guy who did the study and then saw what happened as a result regrets it deeply, and did everything he could to counteract what he'd accidentally caused.

The flaw in the study was that while they studied wild wolves, they were wild wolves that had been captured and were living in a huge enclosure, but they weren't a natural entire wild pack. They were adult strangers to each other forced to live together. Then they were observed, and the scientists saw a lot of fighting and struggles for the pack to get along and dominate each other, because that's not how wolves live in the wild.

In the wild, the alpha pair are not related to each other, but find each other and become mates, produce cubs, then the cubs grow, learn to hunt, help raise the next batches of cubs that the alpha pair produce, and the pack grows. But the pack are all related to each other. They're an original pair, their offspring, and some stay with the pack once grown and continue to raise their nieces and nephews, hunt together as a pack with the original, alpha pair leading and teaching the younger ones how to work together to bring down prey, and bringing food back for the pack.


They don't tend to fight, or struggle for dominance the way the stranger wolves did in the study. The ones higher in the hierarchy will "punish" and dominate a member that's lower in ranking than they are if they step out of line, but it's usually subtle body language warnings, as with dogs, that can escalate to a bite or a fight if all the body language, staring eyes, lip curls and air snaps are ignored. They do have a pack hierarchy, but it's based on them being a family, and younger members don't try to take over the alpha position, since wolves tend to mate for life unless one dies, then the remaining one might find another mate, but not usually from their own pack. There are sometimes scuffles between lower ranking members as they mature if one is naturally more confident and dominant, or another is more submissive and happy to follow, just as with dogs, but since they've grown up together they've always known each other and tend to settle into their own roles, and accept if a younger dog is more leader-like and becomes more dominant than they are, and winds up higher in the pack hierarchy. Rarely leads to full on fights within a pack.

Full on fighting tends to be reserved for when unrelated packs are fighting for territory, or chasing off/attacking a lone wolf that has wandered into their territory, or wants to join the pack, and needs to establish its place in the pack if accepted.

Lone wolves tend to be young adults who are wandering, looking for a mate of their own to start their own pack. Or if a wolf has lost it's mate or the other members of it's pack.
Sometimes they find a mate from another pack, and establish a territory close to their original pack, and will keep the bonds they have with their family pack - remember all the stories and videos of dogs going wild when they see someone they bonded with but haven't seen for years? They remember scent and a person/other dog/wolf for the rest of their lives. So sometimes the two (or more) packs will work together and become a much larger "super pack", since more wolves working together can control more territory and bring down larger game, and compete more successfully against other packs.

Stranger wolves that have strayed far from their original packs do sometimes join an established family pack, and can be accepted by the pack. But they have to show respect and earn the trust of the alphas and other members of the pack, and can be accepted as an honorary aunt/uncle. Wolves don't like to be alone. That's highly dangerous for them, so a straying lone wolf is always on the look out for a mate, or to join a pack, since there's safety in numbers, they're more successful in a pack, and a lone wolf may be killed or driven out of the territory, so has to be careful and show respect, back off, but gently try to be accepted, which may take a while, and isn't always successful.

But they don't just randomly form packs with a bunch of unknown wolves, the way the strange and unrelated adult wolves were forced to live together for that study. This lead to a lot of fighting and un-natural behaviour since it wasn't a naturally formed pack, and they struggled to establish mated pairs, would fight a lot or kill the young of other members the way wild packs will sometimes kill the cubs of another pack if they find them, since that weakens the competing pack. So this study forced a large group of unrelated wolves to try to establish a single pack, but it doesn't work that way, and lead to very flawed results from the study, and the captive wolves did not behave the way wolves do in the wild as a result, and gave flawed results of how wolves behave "in the wild" that has long been debunked as a result of researchers studying actual wild naturally formed wolf packs.

Sorry for another essay, but you guys know I always type too much! I just get passionate about certain topics, and dog training, body language and dogs themselves are a deep special interest of mine! This isn't directed at you @Naughts , I know you wouldn't smack, hurt or try to dominate your pup! I know you better than that. ;) :friends:Just sent me off on a topic I'm passionate about when the "pick up your dog often to show you're top dog" nonsense gets recommended. It's advice for the lurkers more than anything. :)

How are things going with your pup though, @Naughts ? You haven't given us an update or photo for a while, and I'd love to hear how he's doing, how you're finding having a dog now, and see how he's growing! I can't have a puppy at the moment, and I'm puppy broody, so I love to live vicariously through friends who have pups and young dogs. Or any dogs of any age, to be honest!

My neighbour friend got a stunningly pretty and adorable cockapoo that's now 7-8 months old, and doing brilliantly, but she specifically asked to walk with me and Pixie, because she's known Pixie since she was a pup herself, and knows she's a good dog for a pup to learn from. Pix is a mature and naturally more dominant female, and technically elderly now that she's 11, and she's always been good about accepting and hanging out with other dogs, but won't tolerate it if a dog is rude when approaching her, knocks her about, or tries to chase her when she's not willing to play, and that she'll correct the pup with a warning growl, or an airsnap, without going overboard.

She acts like a mother dog in her corrections, firmly telling the pup to back off if it's too enthusiastic or rough with her, but won't hurt the pup, and will instantly forgive and forget if the pup listens to and accepts the correction, and then be friendly again with the pup if it's more respectful to her. So she's a good dog for helping a pup learn boundaries, especially if it's still in that young dog stage where they go mad when meeting other dogs and get too overexcited, or run up to strange dogs and bully, rather than greeting politely and inviting play.

She's so good at it, that I'm now considering and preparing to be a foster home for dogs. I think she'd accept it if the other dog is temporary and not 'taking her place', and I could get my doggy training and observation fix, while saving a dog from having to live in kennels until a suitable home is found. Much better way to assess a dog's character and training needs when it's in a home environment too, and especially with a well trained, confident and motherly type older dog to learn from. If she bonds with a particular dog, then it might wind up being a "foster fail" and end up with me adopting it. :) But now we've inherited the house, have a large garden, and I'm still disabled but physically capable of caring for animals, I would love to do it. Not yet, have a lot of stuff to do before I could do it, but it's my daydream I'm working towards!

Pixie is too old for it now, but one day I'd love to train a dog to do search and rescue. Pixie would have excelled at that when she was younger, and spaniels and border collies (she's a mix of both) are well suited for that sort of work, while I want a worthwhile purpose to work towards. Wish me luck! ♥️🐶
 
Honestly, that dominance style of training isn't great anyway. It's long been debunked.

I much prefer, and get better results, by using positive only methods. No need to get physical with the dog, especially "to establish dominance", no need to smack a dog, hit with a newspaper, rub their nose in the mess if they toilet indoors when toilet training... those are old school methods based on bad science, and don't teach the dog anything good. All they do is damage the relationship and bond, and confuse the dog.

Dogs do establish dominance with each other, and can push boundaries with their humans at certain ages of development that need more careful/stern handling, but they don't want to be "alpha", don't want to dominate you, and there's no need to pin dogs down, pick them up, or physically punish them for something they likely don't even remember doing. Dogs live in the moment, so coming home and finding an accident on the carpet they did hours ago, then punishing them for it, doesn't help anything. Shouting, physically punishing, pinning them down or picking them up doesn't do anything to help. They won't even remember the accident, so punishing them hours later only confuses them, as do those old fashioned bullying type "tips". They only confuse the dog, and damage the bond and trust you want to develop.

Sorry @sharkweek178 , this isn't a criticism of you, I have a lot of respect for you! And your fish knowledge. But I strongly disagree about the dominance nonsense. Dogs will assess each others level of dominance and sort a pecking order, but if you act like a calm leader and show them what you want from them, then reward them for doing it, they're much more likely to respect you as a leader, trust that you can handle scary or strange situations, and develop a stronger bond of trust based on understanding and communicating what you want from them, rather than shouting or physically punishing them.

The dominance, alpha nonsense is based on a study someone did on wolf behaviour, which was widely read and then interpreted by dog trainers, and resulted in a lot of bad training for a long time. The guy who did the study and then saw what happened as a result regrets it deeply, and did everything he could to counteract what he'd accidentally caused.

The flaw in the study was that while they studied wild wolves, they were wild wolves that had been captured and were living in a huge enclosure, but they weren't a natural entire wild pack. They were adult strangers to each other forced to live together. Then they were observed, and the scientists saw a lot of fighting and struggles for the pack to get along and dominate each other, because that's not how wolves live in the wild.

In the wild, the alpha pair are not related to each other, but find each other and become mates, produce cubs, then the cubs grow, learn to hunt, help raise the next batches of cubs that the alpha pair produce, and the pack grows. But the pack are all related to each other. They're an original pair, their offspring, and some stay with the pack once grown and continue to raise their nieces and nephews, hunt together as a pack with the original, alpha pair leading and teaching the younger ones how to work together to bring down prey, and bringing food back for the pack.


They don't tend to fight, or struggle for dominance the way the stranger wolves did in the study. The ones higher in the hierarchy will "punish" and dominate a member that's lower in ranking than they are if they step out of line, but it's usually subtle body language warnings, as with dogs, that can escalate to a bite or a fight if all the body language, staring eyes, lip curls and air snaps are ignored. They do have a pack hierarchy, but it's based on them being a family, and younger members don't try to take over the alpha position, since wolves tend to mate for life unless one dies, then the remaining one might find another mate, but not usually from their own pack. There are sometimes scuffles between lower ranking members as they mature if one is naturally more confident and dominant, or another is more submissive and happy to follow, just as with dogs, but since they've grown up together they've always known each other and tend to settle into their own roles, and accept if a younger dog is more leader-like and becomes more dominant than they are, and winds up higher in the pack hierarchy. Rarely leads to full on fights within a pack.

Full on fighting tends to be reserved for when unrelated packs are fighting for territory, or chasing off/attacking a lone wolf that has wandered into their territory, or wants to join the pack, and needs to establish its place in the pack if accepted.

Lone wolves tend to be young adults who are wandering, looking for a mate of their own to start their own pack. Or if a wolf has lost it's mate or the other members of it's pack.
Sometimes they find a mate from another pack, and establish a territory close to their original pack, and will keep the bonds they have with their family pack - remember all the stories and videos of dogs going wild when they see someone they bonded with but haven't seen for years? They remember scent and a person/other dog/wolf for the rest of their lives. So sometimes the two (or more) packs will work together and become a much larger "super pack", since more wolves working together can control more territory and bring down larger game, and compete more successfully against other packs.

Stranger wolves that have strayed far from their original packs do sometimes join an established family pack, and can be accepted by the pack. But they have to show respect and earn the trust of the alphas and other members of the pack, and can be accepted as an honorary aunt/uncle. Wolves don't like to be alone. That's highly dangerous for them, so a straying lone wolf is always on the look out for a mate, or to join a pack, since there's safety in numbers, they're more successful in a pack, and a lone wolf may be killed or driven out of the territory, so has to be careful and show respect, back off, but gently try to be accepted, which may take a while, and isn't always successful.

But they don't just randomly form packs with a bunch of unknown wolves, the way the strange and unrelated adult wolves were forced to live together for that study. This lead to a lot of fighting and un-natural behaviour since it wasn't a naturally formed pack, and they struggled to establish mated pairs, would fight a lot or kill the young of other members the way wild packs will sometimes kill the cubs of another pack if they find them, since that weakens the competing pack. So this study forced a large group of unrelated wolves to try to establish a single pack, but it doesn't work that way, and lead to very flawed results from the study, and the captive wolves did not behave the way wolves do in the wild as a result, and gave flawed results of how wolves behave "in the wild" that has long been debunked as a result of researchers studying actual wild naturally formed wolf packs.

Sorry for another essay, but you guys know I always type too much! I just get passionate about certain topics, and dog training, body language and dogs themselves are a deep special interest of mine! This isn't directed at you @Naughts , I know you wouldn't smack, hurt or try to dominate your pup! I know you better than that. ;) :friends:Just sent me off on a topic I'm passionate about when the "pick up your dog often to show you're top dog" nonsense gets recommended. It's advice for the lurkers more than anything. :)

How are things going with your pup though, @Naughts ? You haven't given us an update or photo for a while, and I'd love to hear how he's doing, how you're finding having a dog now, and see how he's growing! I can't have a puppy at the moment, and I'm puppy broody, so I love to live vicariously through friends who have pups and young dogs. Or any dogs of any age, to be honest!

My neighbour friend got a stunningly pretty and adorable cockapoo that's now 7-8 months old, and doing brilliantly, but she specifically asked to walk with me and Pixie, because she's known Pixie since she was a pup herself, and knows she's a good dog for a pup to learn from. Pix is a mature and naturally more dominant female, and technically elderly now that she's 11, and she's always been good about accepting and hanging out with other dogs, but won't tolerate it if a dog is rude when approaching her, knocks her about, or tries to chase her when she's not willing to play, and that she'll correct the pup with a warning growl, or an airsnap, without going overboard.

She acts like a mother dog in her corrections, firmly telling the pup to back off if it's too enthusiastic or rough with her, but won't hurt the pup, and will instantly forgive and forget if the pup listens to and accepts the correction, and then be friendly again with the pup if it's more respectful to her. So she's a good dog for helping a pup learn boundaries, especially if it's still in that young dog stage where they go mad when meeting other dogs and get too overexcited, or run up to strange dogs and bully, rather than greeting politely and inviting play.

She's so good at it, that I'm now considering and preparing to be a foster home for dogs. I think she'd accept it if the other dog is temporary and not 'taking her place', and I could get my doggy training and observation fix, while saving a dog from having to live in kennels until a suitable home is found. Much better way to assess a dog's character and training needs when it's in a home environment too, and especially with a well trained, confident and motherly type older dog to learn from. If she bonds with a particular dog, then it might wind up being a "foster fail" and end up with me adopting it. :) But now we've inherited the house, have a large garden, and I'm still disabled but physically capable of caring for animals, I would love to do it. Not yet, have a lot of stuff to do before I could do it, but it's my daydream I'm working towards!

Pixie is too old for it now, but one day I'd love to train a dog to do search and rescue. Pixie would have excelled at that when she was younger, and spaniels and border collies (she's a mix of both) are well suited for that sort of work, while I want a worthwhile purpose to work towards. Wish me luck! ♥️🐶
Just to be clear, I'm not talking about handling the dog roughly or painfully. Just picking it up and holding it.
 
I think that ship may have sailed for me, 6 month old and weighs 23.5 kg :/
Gulp! Siri hit 23kgs at 4 months. He is still a big baby though (one week off 5 months now)
PXL_20231215_135845785~2.jpg
 
Gulp! Siri hit 23kgs at 4 months. He is still a big baby though (one week off 5 months now)
View attachment 335410
😍😍😍 Gah! He's so beautiful! Remind me what breed he is again, please? I know it was some kind of retriever, I think? But not a lab or goldie, if I remember rightly?

He looks like he's having a great time at the beach! I have hundreds of similar photos, of Pixie running towards me, ears flying everywhere, all limbs, ears and enthusiasm. Of course, many of those photos are just a black and white blur, or a tail just disappearing out of shot. But I can't bring myself to delete those for some reason! It's still her, and makes me smile. :lol:

4-5 months is a lovely age, and yes, still very much a puppy! Is he starting to get that gangly look that I love? :D
 
He's a White Swiss Shepherd, although the word white is kind of redundant as its the only colour they come in. (Unless you take mud into account ):eek:
 
On the other hand teaching your dog how to get to the bathtub, voluntarily and stay there is priceless. I have an AUO, she is 10 this year and in her second year or so, she kept getting vicious belly infections, of some yeast sorts, the only way to treat would be to shave the belly and bathe, each day, with some shampoo that absolutely had to stay on for 10 minutes, and this would go on for days or weeks, a break, and then back to the bathing again.
Cannot appreciate how much I was glad I made a list when she was a puppy and simply trained her to accept all situations, paws inspections, teeth inspections, bathing, public transits, other dogs, cats, bikes, boats, you name it, we tried it and she is so much easier to work with. Especially compared with our second dog, a covid adoption one, she was already one year old with rough history, part beagle, part satan I assume. Everything is a melodrama with her, even such a stupid thing as paw washing, you would thing the world is ending or something :)
One of my dogs used to jump in the river all the time and got yeast infections. We spent a fortune on "dog shampoo" from the vet and it didn't work. I found some Palmolive anti-dandruff shampoo that contained tea tree and Eucalyptus and used that twice a week for a month. No more yeast infections and the shampoo was much safer and cheaper than the stuff the vet sold.

The shampoo from the vet had conflicting information and said keep away from the dog's eyes, nose, mouth and wear rubber gloves when applying it. Leave it for 10 minutes then wash off. It also had rub some of the shampoo around the dog's lips and gums.

Now I didn't like the idea of having to wear rubber gloves to use a special shampoo that wasn't working. And I figured human shampoo is testing on dogs and cats. So I tried the human anti-dandruff shampoo and it cleared the problem up straight away.

The same dog used to get itchy feet during spring and summer and it was the rye grass on the park. When we got home from our walk, I used a damp paper towel to wipe her belly, legs and feet down to remove the dust and pollen, and no more itchy legs for her.

If you use warm water to wash the dogs (especially in cool weather), they are more likely to enjoy it rather than cold water. Have a rubber matt on the floor of the bath so they don't slip, and give them a good massage while lathering them up with shampoo. Then dry them off with a couple of towels and make a big fuss about how good they are. My dogs would hop in the bath and enjoy their bath time.
 
Have a rubber matt on the floor of the bath so they don't slip
This one took me some time to figure out myself and I felt so stupid!! Was so easier afterards, she didnt like to stand in the slippery bathtub. My dogs yeast infections went away after castration, she had some other medical issues that disappeared. However good tip about the antidandruff shampoo, she sometimes still has a red spot in the summer, exactly must be some damn grass or pollen. She will also go into every damn water source available :) We also learnt to play games in the showr, in which hand is the treat, peanut butter from some hard to get source...
 

Most reactions

Back
Top