Dying Fish

[acg200587]

Hello,

Totally new to fish keeping and already learned that with all the conflicting advice it's a bit of a minefield...

Anyway, I set up the Fluval Edge 46l fish tank at the beginning of January as per the manufacturers instruction and the shop said after it had been set up for a week and the water readings were good that it would be okay to add 6 cardinal tetras.... big mistake.

Anyway, all was going fine and they seemed well enough but my husband carried out a water change and cleaned the filter media after a week and since then the tank nitrites have increased, the fish got white spot and 4 out of our 6 tetras have died.

Having looked into advice online I now realise we should have cycled tank without fish first and that cardinals are renowned for being sensitive and not good for new tanks.

I'm just looking for advice going forward on how to resolve the issue so that we can potentially keep the two fish that are left.

At the moment we are treating white spot (every other day) with Aquacare. We are also carrying out daily water changes (20-30%) and adding fluval cycle once changed. At the moment the nitrites are sitting at about 0.75 (they were around 2), however, the hardness, ph and alkalinity are all too low because we are in a soft water area and the frequent water changes aren't helping.

My husband has cleaned the substrate as much as he could to make sure there isn't any food rotting. One of the fish looks like he has no white spot left, the other has some but seems to be improving. They go through stages where they swim around together and look like they are doing well and at times they will hang around the bottom of the tank hiding in the plants.

Any advice would be greatly received as we don't want to lose the last two fish.

 

[Essjay]

At the moment, water changes are your best friend. You need to get nitrite down to zero, and do as many water changes as necessary to keep it there. Do you have a tester for ammonia? Your readings would imply you are using strip testers which do not include ammonia - you need to get a separate for ammonia. This also needs to be kept at zero, though as you have nitrite you must have some ammonia eating bacteria in the tank now. Daily water changes are needed but more than 20 to 30%. You ned to change as much as necessary to get ammonia and nitrite to zero. As long as the new water is dechlorinated and at the same temperature as the tank water, even 100% water changes will not harm the fish.

Cardinal tetras are soft water fish; the pH and hardness cannot be too low for them (unless the pH is below 4). If it was the test strip instructions that said they were too low, ignore them. Cardinals' pH range is 3.5 to 7.5 and their hardness range is 18 to 215 ppm (which is the same as 1 to 12 dH) http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/paracheirodon-axelrodi/


The Edge, even the 46 litre version, has only a 43 x 26 cm footprint. It is really too small for cardinal tetras which need a tank with a 60 x 30 cm footprint. Even when the whitespot is cured, I would not get any more cardinals. With soft water, one of the Boraras species such as chili rasboras http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/boraras-brigittae/ would be suitable - a largish shoal of at least 10. But do not get any more fish yet.
If the remaining cardinals survive, I would see if the shop will take them back, then continue with a fishless cycle as per these instructions http://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first.421488/ Since you are already part way through the cycle, it won't take much longer to finish.

 

[acg200587]

At the moment, water changes are your best friend. You need to get nitrite down to zero, and do as many water changes as necessary to keep it there. Do you have a tester for ammonia? Your readings would imply you are using strip testers which do not include ammonia - you need to get a separate for ammonia. This also needs to be kept at zero, though as you have nitrite you must have some ammonia eating bacteria in the tank now. Daily water changes are needed but more than 20 to 30%. You ned to change as much as necessary to get ammonia and nitrite to zero. As long as the new water is dechlorinated and at the same temperature as the tank water, even 100% water changes will not harm the fish.

Cardinal tetras are soft water fish; the pH and hardness cannot be too low for them (unless the pH is below 4). If it was the test strip instructions that said they were too low, ignore them. Cardinals' pH range is 3.5 to 7.5 and their hardness range is 18 to 215 ppm (which is the same as 1 to 12 dH) http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/paracheirodon-axelrodi/


The Edge, even the 46 litre version, has only a 43 x 26 cm footprint. It is really too small for cardinal tetras which need a tank with a 60 x 30 cm footprint. Even when the whitespot is cured, I would not get any more cardinals. With soft water, one of the Boraras species such as chili rasboras http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/boraras-brigittae/ would be suitable - a largish shoal of at least 10. But do not get any more fish yet.
If the remaining cardinals survive, I would see if the shop will take them back, then continue with a fishless cycle as per these instructions http://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first.421488/ Since you are already part way through the cycle, it won't take much longer to finish.

Hi,

Thanks very much for the information that really helps. The Fluval Edge tank is awful we have already learned that after only a few weeks. Looks great but horrendous to clean and not long enough for the fish to have a good swim around. My husband has been looking at larger options so there is a good chance we will do away with the Edge pretty soon.

I was concerned about the water changes removing good bacteria from the tank. How much of a change would you recommend? I'm off to buy some ammonia testing strips today. Is there anything else I can do in the meantime to speed up the cycling process?

Thanks again

 

[Essjay]

The bacteria we need to grow live in the biofilm, tightly bound to surfaces in the tank. Provided dechlorinator is added to the new water (so the chlorine doesn't kill the bacteria) water changes won't harm the growing bacteria colonies.
You could get some Tetra Safe Start - but check the use by dates if you use a 'real' shop. This is known to contain the right species of nitrite eating bacteria whereas Fluval Cycle used to contain the wrong species and may still do. I know that the TSS instructions say not to water changes, but you can't let nitrite harm the fish.
Seachem Prime dechlorinator would also be useful as it detoxifies both ammonia and nitrite. This effect lasts only 24 to 36 hours so you still need to do water changes, but Prime protects the fish until the next daily water change. Both ammonia and nitrite will still show up in the tests even in the detoxified state.



That's the problem with 'designer' tanks - they are made to be pretty but are not always user - or fish - friendly. If you do get another tank, take all the filter media from the Edge and persuade it to fit in the new tank's filter and fill the gaps with new media. That way you'll preserve the bacteria you have already grown. According to Hagen's website, the Edge filter contains carbon clean & clear bags, foam pads and biomax. The foam pads can be cut to shape. The biomax can be put into a mesh bag. As for the carbon clean & clear pads, open the bag, throw away the contents and put the empty bag in the new filter. You don't need to use this media full time but the bag will have bacteria on it.
Get the biggest tank you can afford/have room for

 

[Colin_T]

I would do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every second day, and then treat the tank after you do the water change.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Remove carbon (black granules) from the filter when treating fish because it will absorb the medication and stop it working.

Keep the feeding down to every couple of days. Do a water change 4-8 hours after feeding. This would work well with the medication and you could feed in the morning, do a water change in the afternoon and retreat the tank after doing the water change.

Continue treatment until the fish have been free of white spots for at least 4 days.

After the fish have been treated, keep the feeding down and water changes up until the filters have established. Then you can feed more often and add more fish.

Make sure you have a picture or something on the back of the tank to make the fish feel safer. Adding some floating plants to the tank will also make them feel more secure.

The following link has some information about what to do if your fish get sick. It's pretty long and boring but worth knowing. I recommend printing it out and reading it in bed to help you fall asleep.
http://www.fishforums.net/threads/what-to-do-if-your-fish-gets-sick.450268/#post-3804819

 

[acg200587]

I would do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every second day, and then treat the tank after you do the water change.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Remove carbon (black granules) from the filter when treating fish because it will absorb the medication and stop it working.

Keep the feeding down to every couple of days. Do a water change 4-8 hours after feeding. This would work well with the medication and you could feed in the morning, do a water change in the afternoon and retreat the tank after doing the water change.

Continue treatment until the fish have been free of white spots for at least 4 days.

After the fish have been treated, keep the feeding down and water changes up until the filters have established. Then you can feed more often and add more fish.

Make sure you have a picture or something on the back of the tank to make the fish feel safer. Adding some floating plants to the tank will also make them feel more secure.

The following link has some information about what to do if your fish get sick. It's pretty long and boring but worth knowing. I recommend printing it out and reading it in bed to help you fall asleep.
http://www.fishforums.net/threads/what-to-do-if-your-fish-gets-sick.450268/#post-3804819

Thank you for the advice. My husband has done a large water change tonight and they always seem much happier after the water has been changed. It looks like most of the white spots have gone now so going by the box I only need to give them one more dose and that should be enough to have eradicated whatever was still in the substrate.

My dilemma now is what to do in terms of my fish. I spoke to the fish shop today and they wouldn’t take the fish back so I’m left with 2 cardinal tetras in a tank that doesn’t suit them. In an ideal world I’d wait until the tank was fully cycled and clear from white spot and add another four cardinals but this doesn’t seem like a good thing to do. Neither does keeping only two of them though as they do better in groups of five or more...

 

[Byron]

My dilemma now is what to do in terms of my fish. I spoke to the fish shop today and they wouldn’t take the fish back so I’m left with 2 cardinal tetras in a tank that doesn’t suit them. In an ideal world I’d wait until the tank was fully cycled and clear from white spot and add another four cardinals but this doesn’t seem like a good thing to do. Neither does keeping only two of them though as they do better in groups of five or more...

There are three options here. The first is to re-home the fish, to a store or another aquarist. The second is to acquire a larger tank. The third is to increase the group in the present tank which is going against the norm, but we must consider the fish first; I will explain the third option as the other two are self-evident.

I readily accept that this tank is really too small for this species (cardinal tetra). However, there is a dilemma. Two cardinals at this early stage of their life (it is usual for stores to have very young fish) are going to be stressed out on their own, severely so. So you add more to the existing tank once the ich issue is resolved. A group of five or six. Floating plants (lower plants do not matter, you can have them or not) are essential as cardinals have what Baensch called a light phobia and dimmer light will help them; include some branches and/or chunks of wood as these are natural habitat items and will also help to calm the fish.

Cardinals are sedate fish, not active swimmers, so the space is a bit different of an issue than it would be for more active fish. Observations in their habitat have shown that this species prefers to cluster around plants or branches in groups of five. In more open water, they number in the hundreds. This tells us something about their needs. Dim light, branches, floating plants.

This will provide the fish with what they expect, and they will be much better for it. While not what I would recommend for someone starting from scratch, it will work given the circumstances.

A note on the ich...if the two remaining cardinals do live through this and "recover," they may still have problems because these issues like ammonia/nitrite and medications do take a toll on fish and that is not reversible. They may not last all that much longer (the next few weeks), but then again they may. So I would make sure the ich is resolved before anything is decided.

 

[Colin_T]

It looks like most of the white spots have gone now so going by the box I only need to give them one more dose and that should be enough to have eradicated whatever was still in the substrate.

You have to continue treatment until the fish have been free of white spots for at least 4 days.

If one white spot parasite is left alive the fish will be reinfected and probably die due to their weakened state.

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Let the tank run and after it has cycled, then think about what you are going to do with the remaining fish.

 

[acg200587]

You have to continue treatment until the fish have been free of white spots for at least 4 days.

If one white spot parasite is left alive the fish will be reinfected and probably die due to their weakened state.

-----------------------
Let the tank run and after it has cycled, then think about what you are going to do with the remaining fish.

Thanks Colin, any idea how long the tank will take to cycle?

 

[Colin_T]

Most tropical aquariums take about 4-6 weeks for the filters to cycle. Sometimes it can take longer but that's rare.