cycling tank with tetra safe start ??? Help!

[Dodgeroolp]

Hi everyone,

I am in need of desperate help. Currently, I am trying to recycle a 10 G tank, after everything went wrong. I believe, the pH went incredibly low (first time) after adding an almond leaf / driftwood... After that, my tank crashed, and everything went wrong.

Stupidly because I am impatient, I decided to buy 5 cories (2 that are 1 inch, and the rest juveniles) ... I couldn't help myself as I was looking ALL over the place for 1 inch cories.

Now, I have 5 cories (by themselves) Albino cories.. in a 10 G ... I am gonna be moving them to a 40-45 gallon when I fix the intake tube of a pump & re-cycle it. (Had that tank running for a year, until my goldfish died... After buying an infected Pet Smart goldfish.)

The day before yesterday, I had 'retested' the tank, did a water change, everything was at 0, besides ammonia which was 0.50 ppm... I then did another small partial water change, and then added 2 drops of prime. (Not sure if that was effective.)

I then waited 24 hours, and then added HALF of a bottle of Tetra Safe Start (as I heard it does wonders?) I had the bottle for about a week? Maybe a bit longer, or a few weeks? It's been kept under my bed in a bucket the entire time.

I then added half of that... Hoping to see results.
Today, just now I tested, an my ammonia is around 0.50 ppm, my nitrite .. 0.25 - 0.50 ppm (I believe 0.50 ppm.) My nitrate 0 ppm. pH I believe is 6.0? I'm not sure why my pH has been so low lately.

I don't know if the Safe Start is working, or not... I don't know if I should do a 50% water change and then add my dechlorinator + 2 drops of Prime (I know Prime it's self is a decholorinator, but I don't know how to use it, so I just only stick with 2 drops.)


What do I do? I just bought this today: https/www.amazon.com/MarineLand-ML...ira+marineland

As I couldn't find Tetra Safe Start, in multiple Pet Stores I looked... I would have to cross the border (Van to U.S) and go to PetCo for more Safe Start Plus.

Edit: Also, the cories just sit at the bottom of the tank. Don't see signs of heavy breathing... It doesn't even look like they breath. Yesterday they were playing in the bubbler and were only active when the lights in the room / tank light was off. And were slightly active a bit when the light was on. Haven't been watching them much today, due to being busy.

 

[Byron]

Welcome to TFF.

Now, lots to deal with here, and I can't detail everything or this post will never end. Starting with the water parameters, your pH question...what are the parameters of your source water (presumably tap, or well)? When you say "Van to US" do you mean from Vancouver, BC? If yes, as I live here, I know the parameters, but I'll let you confirm whichever. We need to know the GH, KH and pH of your source water.

Leaving that and going to the cycling...first off, the less substances we add to the water the better for fish. This is generally not the best way to proceed, by adding this and that to do whatever, so you should back up a bit. It is a good habit to get into, never using additives or substances unless absolutely essential for the health of the fish (or plants).

Bacterial additives can help, especially Tetra's SafeStart, but only if used according to the directions. I don't personally know Bio-Spira, but I believe I have read of it a while back with good views from others. But again, don't overdose, and follow directions. But I would do some major water changes before adding more, considering the fish's reaction you mention.

Prime I would not use. This conditioner does a lot of messing about with chemistry. If you had nitrite or nitrate in the source water (tap or well), Prime would benefit at water changes [won't get into the explanation], but otherwise, no. What other conditioner do you have? Here again, less rather than more, so only one, ever. And not overdosed, ever.

I really want to now more about the source water before suggesting anything beyond another water change.

Byron.

 

[Dodgeroolp]

Welcome to TFF.

Now, lots to deal with here, and I can't detail everything or this post will never end. Starting with the water parameters, your pH question...what are the parameters of your source water (presumably tap, or well)? When you say "Van to US" do you mean from Vancouver, BC? If yes, as I live here, I know the parameters, but I'll let you confirm whichever. We need to know the GH, KH and pH of your source water.

Leaving that and going to the cycling...first off, the less substances we add to the water the better for fish. This is generally not the best way to proceed, by adding this and that to do whatever, so you should back up a bit. It is a good habit to get into, never using additives or substances unless absolutely essential for the health of the fish (or plants).

Bacterial additives can help, especially Tetra's SafeStart, but only if used according to the directions. I don't personally know Bio-Spira, but I believe I have read of it a while back with good views from others. But again, don't overdose, and follow directions. But I would do some major water changes before adding more, considering the fish's reaction you mention.

Prime I would not use. This conditioner does a lot of messing about with chemistry. If you had nitrite or nitrate in the source water (tap or well), Prime would benefit at water changes [won't get into the explanation], but otherwise, no. What other conditioner do you have? Here again, less rather than more, so only one, ever. And not overdosed, ever.

I really want to now more about the source water before suggesting anything beyond another water change.

Byron.

Hi, thank you for the welcome..

Yes, Vancouver, BC. My upstairs pH tap... Is 6.0, downstairs it's 7.2+

I agree with adding less substances, I panicked --- I'm gonna get back into the habit of leaving it alone.

I ordered some Dr Tim's -- I am hoping it comes in today.

I will stop using Prime, I tested my water, and it shows 0 for everything besides.. pH (downstairs.)


Woke up today, and 3 of the cories were dead... 2 of the bigger ones left, I am not sure what to do.

 

[Dodgeroolp]

I think me doing the partial water change screwed everything over. I haven't been able to get any nitrates / nitrites just ammonia in all of my tanks.

It's really frustrating I have no clue what to do. I've never had this problem before, ever.

 

[Byron]

OK, let's see if I can offer some help. First, to explain about the water pH and parameters.

We in the Lower MAinland have very soft water. The GH is 7 ppm at source and KH is zero. The pH is at or below 5. This is the source reservoirs. They add soda ash (sodium carbonate) to raise the pH to help prevent corrosion of the pipes which can occur with acidic water. [They also add lime (calcium hydroxide) but only at one reservoir source and minimally. I've not noted any changes since this began a couple years ago.] Soda ash dissipates out fairly quickly, so while the water may come out of the tap at 7.0 to 7.2 [some areas in Vancouver city may have 7.4 I believe] it has zero buffering and no minerals so in an aquarium it will settle out rapidly at whatever pH the tank normally keeps.

I have 8 tanks, and do not buffering, so the water chemistry does what it naturally wants to, and I leave it alone. Some tanks maintain a pH in the mid-6 range, some are 5 or likely below. This comes about due to the natural processes, and the fish load (number and size), live plants, water changes, filter cleanings, and substrate cleanings all factor in. It can be unique to each individual aquarium. Adding organic substances like dried leaves (I use these in a couple of tanks), lots of wood, etc will obviously increase the acidity, which is what I see in the tanks with leaves, etc.

This is fine, provided one maintains fish that require such water. I have all soft water fish, primarily wild caught, from South America and SE Asia. I've had no issues in 20+ years. But I would never consider moderately hard or harder water species (livebearers, rift lake cichlids, and a few others) without setting up a tank with suitably prepared water.

That I hope explains the pH being at 6 (it may actually be lower, as most test kits only go down to 6).

Now, the cycling issues. Ammonia in acidic water changes to ammonium, which is basically harmless, but our test kits read ammonia or ammonium as "ammonia," so don't worry about this. If you do see nitrites, that is a concern as they will be deadly.

The bacterial supplements you were using may have done something; I have never used these (I have used Seachem's Stability once in an emergency, needn't go into that) but I believe from what other members have mentioned that these products do cause this.

Do you have any live plants in this tank? If yes, you should be fine for "cycling."

Now, to the cories problem. They are in the 10g, and you mention nitrite at 0.5 in post #1, so this is likely the issue. Though later you say it is zero...but if it was present earlier, it will have affected the cories. I would do a major water change, 2/3 of the tank volume, using only tap water (at a temperature just under the tank water now, use your hand to test this) and a conditioner to dechlorinate. Here you can use Prime, as it will help with the nitrite too. Follow directions, use the amount for the replacement water, remembering you have less than 10 gallons in the tank due to displacement by substrate, wood, etc. Just don't use more than what is needed for 10 gallons. If nitrite is zero, fine; if it rises at all, another water change as above. This has to continue daily until you have zero nitrite. Ammonia is ammonium so no issue there, and nitrate won't matter at this point. The nitrite is the killer.

Byron.

 

[Dodgeroolp]

OK, let's see if I can offer some help. First, to explain about the water pH and parameters.

We in the Lower MAinland have very soft water. The GH is 7 ppm at source and KH is zero. The pH is at or below 5. This is the source reservoirs. They add soda ash (sodium carbonate) to raise the pH to help prevent corrosion of the pipes which can occur with acidic water. [They also add lime (calcium hydroxide) but only at one reservoir source and minimally. I've not noted any changes since this began a couple years ago.] Soda ash dissipates out fairly quickly, so while the water may come out of the tap at 7.0 to 7.2 [some areas in Vancouver city may have 7.4 I believe] it has zero buffering and no minerals so in an aquarium it will settle out rapidly at whatever pH the tank normally keeps.

I have 8 tanks, and do not buffering, so the water chemistry does what it naturally wants to, and I leave it alone. Some tanks maintain a pH in the mid-6 range, some are 5 or likely below. This comes about due to the natural processes, and the fish load (number and size), live plants, water changes, filter cleanings, and substrate cleanings all factor in. It can be unique to each individual aquarium. Adding organic substances like dried leaves (I use these in a couple of tanks), lots of wood, etc will obviously increase the acidity, which is what I see in the tanks with leaves, etc.

This is fine, provided one maintains fish that require such water. I have all soft water fish, primarily wild caught, from South America and SE Asia. I've had no issues in 20+ years. But I would never consider moderately hard or harder water species (livebearers, rift lake cichlids, and a few others) without setting up a tank with suitably prepared water.

That I hope explains the pH being at 6 (it may actually be lower, as most test kits only go down to 6).

Now, the cycling issues. Ammonia in acidic water changes to ammonium, which is basically harmless, but our test kits read ammonia or ammonium as "ammonia," so don't worry about this. If you do see nitrites, that is a concern as they will be deadly.

The bacterial supplements you were using may have done something; I have never used these (I have used Seachem's Stability once in an emergency, needn't go into that) but I believe from what other members have mentioned that these products do cause this.

Do you have any live plants in this tank? If yes, you should be fine for "cycling."

Now, to the cories problem. They are in the 10g, and you mention nitrite at 0.5 in post #1, so this is likely the issue. Though later you say it is zero...but if it was present earlier, it will have affected the cories. I would do a major water change, 2/3 of the tank volume, using only tap water (at a temperature just under the tank water now, use your hand to test this) and a conditioner to dechlorinate. Here you can use Prime, as it will help with the nitrite too. Follow directions, use the amount for the replacement water, remembering you have less than 10 gallons in the tank due to displacement by substrate, wood, etc. Just don't use more than what is needed for 10 gallons. If nitrite is zero, fine; if it rises at all, another water change as above. This has to continue daily until you have zero nitrite. Ammonia is ammonium so no issue there, and nitrate won't matter at this point. The nitrite is the killer.

Byron.

Thank you, your explanation with the pH helps out a lot.
In the 10 G, I currently do not have live plants, I use to have live plants, but when I was on a month long vacation, they died, due to my sister not putting the light on at all... For an entire month. I do not mind going out and getting more though (originally I was gonna do that, but not yet.) The 10 G is a glofish kit, so I am unsure if the LED's will grow anything.

Nitrite was a 0.5 yes, I'll re-explain, what happened was, yesterday they were at 0.5 (maybe higher?) But the day before that day, I had added HALF of a bottle of Tetra Safe Start, originally, all my numbers were 0, besides ammonia being 0.50 ppm, so what I did was, I added prime + dechlorinator and waited 24 hours, then added the TSS, after testing (which I shouldn't of done.), I saw that my ammonia was 0.50 ppm / nitrite was 0.5 (pretty sure higher.) And Nitrates 0.

This put me in panic mode, and I did a partial water change .. Added 5 mL of Aqua Plus / 2 drops of Prime, a tiny bit of stress coat. Woke up today, 3 cories dead.

Just tested the 10 G tank water just now, I have 0.50 ppm Ammonia / 0 Nitrite / basically 0 Nitrate.

My betta tank is a 6.6 Fluval Chi, should I move them to the 6.6 G temporarily? My betta's tank numbers are 0.50 ppm / 0.5 Nitrate / 0 Nitrite. If I move them to the Fluval, maybe I can go get some Anubais, or something, and put some driftwood in there -- worried about putting an Almond leaf in there though, because I heard it effects pH? Not sure if it's OK for cories.

What do you think? I'm worried about doing another water change on the 10 G and them dying.

 

[Byron]

You have 0.5 nitrite in the Betta tank...so I would not put the two cories in there, aside from other concerns. Fish readily absorb nitrIte from the water and it combines with the hemoglobin in their blood, forming methaemoglobin. As a consequence, the blood cannot transport oxygen as easily and this can become fatal. At 0.25 ppm nitrite begins to affect fish after a short period; at 0.5 ppm it becomes dangerous; and at 1.0 ppm it is often fatal. As i said earlier, the effect of this is permanent, and weakens fish if nothing else.

Prime detoxifies nitrite but this is temporary, lasting for 24-36 hours, after which the nitrite, if still present, reverts back to being toxic. Hence the daily water changes if nitrite is present.

But if nitrite is zero in the 10g, I would do another water change. In an emergency, the first thing I do is a major water change, using just a conditioner, then test the water and attempt to determine the issue. Rarely if ever can a water change be detrimental (and the rare time it can would not apply here, as your pH is below 7). Do 2/3 of the volume and see how the cories react; I would be much surprised if they do not perk up and become more active. That is your good sign.

If something toxic is entering with the water change from the hose/pail/tap...could be I suppose but doubtful.

Stay only with Prime, nothing else for the present. If you can toss in a floating plant, that would help. Anubias is so slow-growing it is not going to have much benefit at this time. You want fast-growing plants to use up this ammonium, which means less is going to Nitrosomonas bacteria to become nitrite.

Almost forgot...all those chemical substances being added to the water are entering the fish via osmosis through their cells and the gills. I'm not suggesting any one is killing the cories, but each does add stress because they are not "natural" to the fish, so this is why we lessen additives in such cases. Clean water is the best remedy, with a dechlorinator only.

Byron.

 

[Dodgeroolp]

You have 0.5 nitrite in the Betta tank...so I would not put the two cories in there, aside from other concerns. Fish readily absorb nitrIte from the water and it combines with the hemoglobin in their blood, forming methaemoglobin. As a consequence, the blood cannot transport oxygen as easily and this can become fatal. At 0.25 ppm nitrite begins to affect fish after a short period; at 0.5 ppm it becomes dangerous; and at 1.0 ppm it is often fatal. As i said earlier, the effect of this is permanent, and weakens fish if nothing else.

Prime detoxifies nitrite but this is temporary, lasting for 24-36 hours, after which the nitrite, if still present, reverts back to being toxic. Hence the daily water changes if nitrite is present.

But if nitrite is zero in the 10g, I would do another water change. In an emergency, the first thing I do is a major water change, using just a conditioner, then test the water and attempt to determine the issue. Rarely if ever can a water change be detrimental (and the rare time it can would not apply here, as your pH is below 7). Do 2/3 of the volume and see how the cories react; I would be much surprised if they do not perk up and become more active. That is your good sign.

If something toxic is entering with the water change from the hose/pail/tap...could be I suppose but doubtful.

Stay only with Prime, nothing else for the present. If you can toss in a floating plant, that would help. Anubias is so slow-growing it is not going to have much benefit at this time. You want fast-growing plants to use up this ammonium, which means less is going to Nitrosomonas bacteria to become nitrite.

Byron.

The betta tank has 0 nitrite, it has 0.5 nitrate** Unless that's the same thing?

 

[Byron]

The betta tank has 0 nitrite, it has 0.5 nitrate** Unless that's the same thing?

Thanks, I had misread; when I see the three in a line, I guess I "assume" ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. No problem for the Betta then...but I still would not move the cories unless the water change results in no improvement. I'll stay online for a bit to see...

 

[Dodgeroolp]

Thanks, I had misread; when I see the three in a line, I guess I "assume" ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. No problem for the Betta then...but I still would not move the cories unless the water change results in no improvement. I'll stay online for a bit to see...

Ok, I'm gonna do a 50% water change? Maybe less... And then test, and if not, I'll move them.

 

[Byron]

Ok, I'm gonna do a 50% water change? Maybe less... And then test, and if not, I'll move them.

I would change closer to 60-70%.

 

[Dodgeroolp]

Ok. I am moving them as well, while I do this water change, there is something wrong for the water for sure, as I was doing the water change, one of the corie kept coming to the surface, and literally sticking it's head out of the water multiple of times.

I've never seen this before in my life.. Don't think she'll make it 1 of them, she's breathing fast, and swimming upwards, I removed all the plants, and doing a 75% change, gonna put new water.

Not gonna use prime, just regular Nutrafin since I'm doing such a big water change -- I'm still not use to prime.

I've never been so upset in my life...

 

[Byron]

Ok. I am moving them as well, while I do this water change, there is something wrong for the water for sure, as I was doing the water change, one of the corie kept coming to the surface, and literally sticking it's head out of the water multiple of times.

I've never seen this before in my life.. Don't think she'll make it 1 of them, she's breathing fast, and swimming upwards, I removed all the plants, and doing a 75% change, gonna put new water.

Not gonna use prime, just regular Nutrafin since I'm doing such a big water change -- I'm still not use to prime.

I've never been so upset in my life...

Agree. No idea what could be in the fresh water.

 

[Dodgeroolp]

Agree. No idea what could be in the fresh water.

I did a 100% water change, rinsed the Nat Geo sad sub, and the filter.. I rinsed everything, moved the last remaining cory to the betta tank. Don't think she'll make it either

Starting from scratch now.. Treated the tank with Nutrafin Aqua plus, gonna wait 24 hours...

I got Dr tims. Gonna do a fishless cycle, any advice on how to do a fishless cycle? I only have tims not the ammonia drop bottle. So how much food do I use? How many water changes, etc.

 

[Byron]

I did a 100% water change, rinsed the Nat Geo sad sub, and the filter.. I rinsed everything, moved the last remaining cory to the betta tank. Don't think she'll make it either

Starting from scratch now.. Treated the tank with Nutrafin Aqua plus, gonna wait 24 hours...

I got Dr tims. Gonna do a fishless cycle, any advice on how to do a fishless cycle? I only have tims not the ammonia drop bottle. So how much food do I use? How many water changes, etc.

I have never "cycled" an aquarium other than by live plants (so-called "silent cycle") so I would prefer not interfering if you go this route. Other members have more experience using these products.

I am still baffled. With our water, and the parameters of your tanks being so close to the tap water, a water change should benefit immensely. One thing occurs to me...is your water running through any sort of filter or system? I doubt you would have a water softener with our very soft water, but is there any other apparatus?

BTW, on the issue of conditioners, now we are over the "emergency," I would change from Nutrafin Aqua+. This has aloe vera in it, and studies have now shown that this can harm fish gills over time. I'm not suggesting that is what happened here--though at the same time if you exceeded the necessary amount it would affect the fish, and comments were made previously about so many additives and these can react. Prime is OK during cycling as it deals with sudden ammonia/nitrite, I just don't like it after that when there is no problem in the source water with ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. I switched from Nutrafin to API's Tap Water Conditioner, after a friend here told me about the aloe vera and sent me the scientific studies on it. The other advantage of API TWC is you use so very little...one drop per gallon, which is highly concentrated. It lasts a very long time, and is ideal for our water that really has nothing but chlorine in it.

Byron.