Cycling 5G Tank - Ammonia Won't Drop, Several Worries

[Tosakin]

I'm currently fishless cycling a 5 gallon/20 litre Arcadia Arc II tank with the following equipment:
- Classica Powerbio 200 Filter (200 litres/hour)
- Arcadia Ellipse 11 watt light
- Visi-Therm 25 watt heater
 
The tank has several live plants and a sand substrate. The tank, equipment and sand are all new whilst the plants came from a previous tank which has been running for over 6 months. This old tank had recently had a disaster however where I came back from a few days away with 6 fish gone (I literally couldn't find them anywhere, not outside the tank or in the filter/in any ornaments even when removing everything but water and substrate) and only one ruby tetra remaining. When I was able to test the water, ammonia was at 0.5ppm leading me to think the tank had either never truly cycled despite me thinking it had (it was my first attempt at cycling) or had crashed despite weekly water changes. I feel really guilty about this because I should have been testing the water more often but had just assumed everything would be running okay and once it all happened I had to wait several days to even test the water because my ammonia test bottles had run out.
 
Following this, I'm really determined to get my next tank right and to keep the remaining tetra alive. The tetra is currently still in the old tank, which is down to 0 ammonia after several water changes and the water is being tested frequently. To help cycle the new tank I decided to place some filter media from the old tank into the new filter thinking that there must be at least some bacteria in there even if it had never truly cycled. I've never been quite sure if I should have done this regarding what happened with the old tank so any input here would be great. I also added pure ammonia (no surfactants) to the new tank and added too much originally, bringing the level to 8ppm. It was at this level for a few days before I did a water change to reduce it to 4ppm. I'm also worried about this, after hearing 8ppm ammonia can actually kill beneficial bacteria, and may have killed off any bacteria in the seed filter media.
 
The ammonia level has been at 4ppm for two weeks now and hasn't dropped. In terms of troubleshooting,
- pH has been stable between 6.5-7.5 and is currently at 7.6.
- Temperature is at 80F.
- Oxygen is being added by surface agitation (filter spraybar spraying water onto the surface of the water).
- I removed a small bit of the seed media from the filter today in case it was blocking the filter (I originally put a bigger piece in than what had been in there previously) and placed this on the substrate instead.
- Ammonia used had no surfactants.
- I used a water dechlorinator (Prime), though may have overdosed when first filling the tank (possibly up to 5x).
- Test kit used is API Freshwater Master Test Kit.
- I have done a 25% water change today (using the right dose of Prime) to reduce the ammonia to 3ppm both in case 4ppm is still too high for bacteria to grow and to make sure I hadn't been misreading the test kit and it had actually been higher than 4ppm. Having done this, I can see the difference between 2ppm and 4ppm and hadn't been misreading.
 
And things that may be a problem:
- Overdosing Prime at the start.
- Having 8pmm ammonia for a few days at the start and how this might have affected bacteria growth.
- When reducing the ammonia from 8 to 4ppm and to top up some water due to evaporation/testing, I used a different water conditioner (API Water Conditioner) because I was worried about how Prime detoxified ammonia and thought this might affect my ammonia reading, I've since learned this isn't true.
- I have soft water where I live and can't find a KH value (though pH is fine and I could get a KH test kit).
- Using filter media from a tank that had crashed/may not have been cycled.
 
Other:
- I have had no nitrite readings at all.
- I appear to be getting some white growth on the suckers and back of my heater possibly indicating bacterial growth?
 
Sorry for the monster post but I wanted to make sure I covered everything and really want to do this right after the disaster last time. I still feel really guilty and want to do right by the tetra and eventual betta I'm hoping to put in there. Sorry if I've missed anything!
 
Thanks very much for reading and for any input

.

 

[the_lock_man]

Too much ammonia encourages the wrong bacteria to grow, rather than killing the good ones, so that shouldn't be a worry. I would have expected to see some growth, even at 4ppm, so that is odd. Possibly, the pH going from 6.5 to 7.5 might have done something, that's not really that stable, in aquarium terms. I'd be inclined to up the temp a little to 82C, and to add some sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) bit by bit, until the pH reaches 8.0 - 8.2.
 
Give it a week, and see if you get any action.
 
If not, I'd be inclined to change all the water, and start again.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Actually, both too much ammonia or too much nitrite can kill the bacteria. It can, as mentioned, attract the wrong bacteria. One of the more interesting aspect of the cycle is that in different applications- aquariums/aquaculture, drinking water treatment and waste water treatments different ammonia bacs may dominate but the nirtire ones tend to stay the same.
 
The tipping pints for ammonia or nitrite levels while cycling a tank are usually stated using the Ammonia-nitrogen scale not the total ion scale common on hobby tets kits. This is why I so often state that the danger line for ammonia in an API kit is roughly at 6.5 ppm. So at 8 oom  tosakin your tank was much too high and, yes, you may have done damage to whatever bacs you moved over. Just as an FYI when nitrite levels get to the danger line they would be reading about 16.4 on the test kit, but I have not seen one that goes that high.
 
- pH has been stable between 6.5-7.5 and is currently at 7.6.
That is not stable. Just as an fyi "Like the Richter scale used to measure earthquakes, the pH scale is logarithmic. A pH of 5.5 is 10 times more acidic than water at a pH of 6.5. Thus, changing the pH by a small amount (suddenly) is more of a chemical change (and more stressful to fish!) than might first appear." The pH at 6.5 is at the lower limit for normal cycling. At that level it will make the cycle take longer, but will not prevent it.
 
- Temperature is at 80F.
This is OK and not a problem.
 
- Oxygen is being added by surface agitation (filter spraybar spraying water onto the surface of the water).
This is OK and not a problem.
 
- I removed a small bit of the seed media from the filter today in case it was blocking the filter (I originally put a bigger piece in than what had been in there previously) and placed this on the substrate instead.
I would have been leery about moving media from a tank where fish vanished.died/dissolved or whatever without being 100% certain there were no pathogens in the water. As a rule cycled media for seeding is best out intt a filter when at all possible as that is where you want the bacteria to reproduce. When replaceing exisiting bio-media in ones filter then the older media works best in the tank itself.
 
- Ammonia used had no surfactants.
This is OK and not a problem.
 
- I used a water dechlorinator (Prime), though may have overdosed when first filling the tank (possibly up to 5x).
Using prime is fine, that sort of overdosing stalls the cycle at worst and slows it greatly at least. Large doses like this are only advised in situations where fish are in danger and there is no other option, it is, at best, a temporary bridge to a better solution.
 
- Test kit used is API Freshwater Master Test Kit.
This is OK and not a problem. However, it helps to be aware of the shortcomings of each test.
 
- I have done a 25% water change today (using the right dose of Prime) to reduce the ammonia to 3ppm both in case 4ppm is still too high for bacteria to grow and to make sure I hadn't been misreading the test kit and it had actually been higher than 4ppm. Having done this, I can see the difference between 2ppm and 4ppm and hadn't been misreading.
Ideally, shooting for about 3 ppm is a good goal. It is enough to do the job yet far enough from the overdose level to allow for some overdosing error. But the dosing levels in the cycling section are designed to prevent accumulating too much ammonia end especially too much nitrite.
 
As for the other questions you list and for which the above did not provide and answer:
 
- Overdosing Prime at the start. Answered above.
 
- Having 8pmm ammonia for a few days at the start and how this might have affected bacteria growth. Answered above.
 
- When reducing the ammonia from 8 to 4ppm and to top up some water due to evaporation/testing, I used a different water conditioner (API Water Conditioner) because I was worried about how Prime detoxified ammonia and thought this might affect my ammonia reading, I've since learned this isn't true.
 Not an issue usually. Those dechlors which state they perform similar functions will be roughly equivalent. And yes Prime and other dechlors, can affect test results. have a read here http/www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.html
 
- I have soft water where I live and can't find a KH value (though pH is fine and I could get a KH test kit). Answered above.
 
- Using filter media from a tank that had crashed/may not have been cycled.
Not a problem unless the media contained pathogens that one does not want in a tank and which may have harmed the fish in the old tank. having no useful bacterier for the cycle would cause no harm, it would merely do nothing to speed the cycle.
 
- I have had no nitrite readings at all.
And you may not for a bit longer. But at the proper ammonia levels etc., you should see them soon.
 
- I appear to be getting some white growth on the suckers and back of my heater possibly indicating bacterial growth?
No, its not bacteria.
 
KH is what holds pH steady. But it is an indicator of what is called carbonate hardness. Carbonates supply the inorganic carbon the bacteria need to process ammonia or nitrite.
 
One final note. When you calculate the ammonia dosing amount of the site calculator, you should reduce the volume you enter a number between 4.25 and 4.5 gallons, and not 5 gallons. With smaller tanks this is essential to prevent overdosing ammonia. Your tank, if it was sealed, would displace 5 gallons, however it would not hold that much.

 

[Tosakin]

Thanks for the helpful replies, I really appreciate it

.
 
Regarding pH I should have said it started at 6.5 and has since been stable around neutral but the information is great to know! And with raising pH via baking soda, how permanent is this? as I'm just a bit wary of whether it would fall suddenly later on, or is this not the case?
 
Regarding the seed material, I'm unsure at this stage whether to keep it in or throw it out. I feel pretty silly for putting it in now, I was hoping for a quickly cycled tank to start again and might have just transferred the same problem over. I wish I knew what had happened to the fish, I know they were fed slightly more than usual by my brother whilst I was away and maybe this raised the ammonia but the disappearances are so strange. I could only find the body of one ruby tetra, all five pygmy cories were nowhere to be seen. Is there any possible explanations for complete disappearances when nothing could have eaten them?
 
Also, if the white growth isn't bacteria could I ask what it is? Is it harmful? 
 
Thanks again for the thorough and knowledgeable replies. I might actually start again with the tank, as I think up until now I had been somewhat in denial about the dangers of the seed material and a bit blinded by impatience. If I did this, how thorough would cleaning need to be? Simple 100% water change and removal of seed material, or thorough clean of substrate, walls, filter, equipment, and plants, maybe with bleach?
 
Sorry for the extra questions and thanks again

.
 
 
 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Since the media is in and has been a while, any nasties that might have come in with it are in the tank already. Taking it out is basically taking out bacteria. Taking bacteria out of a tank uncycles it some not the reverse.
 
Normally seeding speeds the cycle.
 
Not sure what it is, but it isn't harmful. If it sucks off easily is likely some decaying food or other organic matter. It isn't uncommon to see it in new tanks but it should not last. I got it in my first tank but when I added a red tail black shark it promptly ate it all.
 
Unless you will be keeping rift lake cichlids or sw fish, you do not want to add sodium bicarbonate to a tank. its effects are not long term and you will have to add it regularly. Your pH is about at the low end of the scale for cycling. I would try keeping a bag of crushed coral in the filter to raise the KH a bit. that will keep you pH from going lower and may raise it a bit.
 
Changing ones pH in a stable way is not simple. If you really want to raise your pH, I would suggest using a buffer. You will need to research these to understand what you are facing. Have a little read here, hopefully it will make you think twice http/www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/NeutralRegulator.html

 

[Tosakin]

Thanks again for your informative and quick reply. It's all really good to know, especially about pH - I had heard it's often better to just leave alone if it's stable rather than keep trying to raise/lower it unless it's in a dangerous range. 
 
I've decided I'm going to tear the tank down and start again. I'm going to bleach the tank and equipment (rinsing well and leaving to air dry), disinfect plants, replace sand, and try again. However, I only have a month until university (the small tank was originally purchased so I could move it back and forth) and I'm running out of time! I first thought of using seed material from my dad's tank which has been stable for months but after testing the water pH is somehow off the chart (light brown, lighter than 6), ammonia is 0.25 (edit: read it wrong first time) and nitrate is 160. So possibly not! Will have to convince him to do a water change or do one myself. Ruling seed material out, is there any way at all I could do a cycle in a month? Not sure what else to do!
 
Thanks again.

 

[Tosakin]

Small update: the bleach I bought unfortunately has surfactants in, I have no salt without anticaking agents, no potassium permanganate and no white vinegar. I'm therefore wondering whether simply rinsing everything really well in tap water would suffice? I've rinsed the tank itself with the shower head, have the filter and thermometer soaking in hot tap water, and have rinsed the plants and heater which are soaking in warm tap water. I was then planning on soaking everything in dechlorinated water and then letting it dry. Would this be enough?
 
Thanks.

 

[Tosakin]

Final update: after reading around I've decided to cycle the tank with Tetra SafeStart. It definitely isn't what I had planned originally and I was initially very sceptical but after reading several positive reviews and cycling diaries using the product (as long as it is used as directed), and the very little time I have left I'd prefer to do this and have the tank cycled for as long as possible before going to university. It'll be very difficult to not test and change the water for the 14 days it takes to work but I'll try my best and I'm happy to update this should it be successful. 
 
Thanks again for all your help and information .