Cupramine question

[Sunnyfish]

i think this would be an okay place to put this? i don't post much here, though i do read a lot of posts by other members.
i have a betta who's been dealing with velvet for a good amount of time. i tried a rather cheap velvet treatment a little while ago but it didn't seem to completely kill the parasite. Cupramine was what i purchased next, and it came in the mail a few days ago.
ever since it's arrived i've kept the tank covered with a towel to keep it dark (and also keep it a bit warmer - the heater is as high as it can go). i did a water change today and added a bit of aquarium salt as well.
moving onto the actual question - how often should i add Cupramine? the last treatment i just added more of every week when i did a water change. however, on the back of the bottle of Cupramine, it says to add another however many drops every 48 hours. i haven't had much experience with fishkeeping (yet), much less treating a fish with parasites or disease, so i'd like to be safe and ask. i became used to the weekly addition of more medication, and i don't know if i should be adding Cupramine much more often, especially with it being a stronger treatment. i know that, of course, the treatment was made for fish and was probably tested multiple times before the amount needed and how often it should be added was finally determined. like i said, i just want to be safe so i don't accidentally kill my fish.

 

[Essjay]

I have not used cupramine so I googled it. The instructions on Seachem's website say to add x drops to start the treatment, then another x drops 48 hours later. Then leave for 14 days. And in freshwater tanks use half the number of drops they say - the full number is for marine tanks. So that's 10 drops per 10.5 galls at each dose.

I take this to mean that you have to build up the required level in two stages, then leave that two-dose amount in the water for 14 days to kill all the parasite. They also suggest you buy a copper testing kit to check the amount of copper after adding both doses is 0.25 mg/l in freshwater.

But this means no water changes for 16 days - the 2 where you are building up the dose, and the 14 days it has to be left in the tank. But you can do a water change by adding the amount of cupramine needed for the new water. You would need to add replacement cupramine for both doses to keep the tank level constant, so add at the rate of 20 drops per 10.5 galls to the new water.

 

[Sunnyfish]

I have not used cupramine so I googled it. The instructions on Seachem's website say to add x drops to start the treatment, then another x drops 48 hours later. Then leave for 14 days. And in freshwater tanks use half the number of drops they say - the full number is for marine tanks. So that's 10 drops per 10.5 galls at each dose.

I take this to mean that you have to build up the required level in two stages, then leave that two-dose amount in the water for 14 days to kill all the parasite. They also suggest you buy a copper testing kit to check the amount of copper after adding both doses is 0.25 mg/l in freshwater.

But this means no water changes for 16 days - the 2 where you are building up the dose, and the 14 days it has to be left in the tank. But you can do a water change by adding the amount of cupramine needed for the new water. You would need to add replacement cupramine for both doses to keep the tank level constant, so add at the rate of 20 drops per 10.5 galls to the new water.

i understood the drop amounts, but i guess i didn't really get the rest. looking at the bottle again, though, it doesn't seem too hard to understand. huh. i probably should've reread it a couple more times.
i think i've got it now, though. tomorrow i would just add the same amount as i did yesterday (when i did the water change and added the drops) and then leave it for two weeks, right?

 

[Essjay]

That's my understanding of the instructions on their website.

I know it says to leave the tank for 14 days after the second dose but I would not be happy not doing a water change for that long. I would do one about 6 or 7 days after adding the second dose, but I would add more cupramine to the tank, equal to two doses for the amount of new water.

To give you an idea what I mean, my betta's tank is 7 galls, and I usually change about 3 galls. The dose is 10 drops per 10.5 galls twice making a total of 20 drops in those 10.5 galls. So for my tank I would change 3.5 galls (a third of 10.5) and add 7 drops (a third of 20) to the tank. This would keep the concentration of cupramine constant by replacing the amount I removed by doing the water change.


Just to make sure - do you usually have carbon in the filter, and if you do have you removed it?

 

[Sunnyfish]

That's my understanding of the instructions on their website.

I know it says to leave the tank for 14 days after the second dose but I would not be happy not doing a water change for that long. I would do one about 6 or 7 days after adding the second dose, but I would add more cupramine to the tank, equal to two doses for the amount of new water.

To give you an idea what I mean, my betta's tank is 7 galls, and I usually change about 3 galls. The dose is 10 drops per 10.5 galls twice making a total of 20 drops in those 10.5 galls. So for my tank I would change 3.5 galls (a third of 10.5) and add 7 drops (a third of 20) to the tank. This would keep the concentration of cupramine constant by replacing the amount I removed by doing the water change.


Just to make sure - do you usually have carbon in the filter, and if you do have you removed it?

i feel the same about not doing a water change for that long, actually. i believe my betta's tank is a 5 or 5.5 gallon, and actually, he doesn't have a filter (YET), which would make it even harder on him. i'm completely aware that he should have one, just so you know, but i have yet to purchase one. i should've had one from the start, of course, but when i first got him he was kept in a really small, unheated and unfiltered tank because i didn't know anything about betta care. i've mentioned this in my welcome post that i made a while ago. i stay on top of water changes now and he's obviously been moved to a much bigger and better tank, but i'm still getting that filter, of course. i know i'm completely off topic, but to answer your last question, no, i don't use carbon in the filter because i don't have one yet (emphasis on the yet, once again).
i'll follow your method of replenishing the amount of medication taken out when i do my next water change.

 

[Essjay]

Ah, in that case you will definitely need to do water changes, and more often than just once during treatment. But the way to do them is the same, just more of them.


I use a sponge filter powered by an air pump in my betta's tank. With a line splitter I can bleed off some air to control the flow - it is hard to find a gentle internal filter for small tanks, they all seem too powerful. The one that came with my tank would have pinned the betta to the opposite tank wall

 

[Sunnyfish]

Ah, in that case you will definitely need to do water changes, and more often than just once during treatment. But the way to do them is the same, just more of them.


I use a sponge filter powered by an air pump in my betta's tank. With a line splitter I can bleed off some air to control the flow - it is hard to find a gentle internal filter for small tanks, they all seem too powerful. The one that came with my tank would have pinned the betta to the opposite tank wall

definitely don't want a filter that's too strong! i've found a HOB filter that's meant for smaller tanks, but i'll just have to see if it's actually gentle enough. if not i guess i'll have to stick with a sponge filter. they really do seem to be the best for bettas anyways.

 

[DrRob]

Simplest approach to water changes is to dose the incoming water to the right level. I'd try to avoid double dosing, cupramine is a copper treatment and it does have a toxic level, albeit better than plain old copper sulphate that we used to use. I've treated velvet in the past and, to be honest, the worst culprit for losing fish was the systemic upset to the fish and plenty of clean water was the best of treatments, while the copper kills the velvet. The advantage of regular water changes is that it also keeps the levels regular as it replaces anything that happens to have been randomly bound to organics in the tank.

 

[Sunnyfish]

Simplest approach to water changes is to dose the incoming water to the right level. I'd try to avoid double dosing, cupramine is a copper treatment and it does have a toxic level, albeit better than plain old copper sulphate that we used to use. I've treated velvet in the past and, to be honest, the worst culprit for losing fish was the systemic upset to the fish and plenty of clean water was the best of treatments, while the copper kills the velvet. The advantage of regular water changes is that it also keeps the levels regular as it replaces anything that happens to have been randomly bound to organics in the tank.

double dosing? do you mean adding the same amount the as the first time 48 hours later as the directions say to do or do you mean adding more after a water change?

 

[DrRob]

I mean adding the dose you started with to the water that you're adding. Say, if you're doing a 10 litre water change, then you dose the water you're adding as per the instructions that you followed when you dosed the tank earlier for the 10 litres (so 1 drop per litre - 10 drops in the bucket that you're adding on, etc). That way the water change doesn't change the levels in the tank, so you're able to change water as often as you like with no change to the levels in the tank.

 

[Essjay]

That's what I was trying to explain, but not doing a very good job of it


When doing a water change, only add the amount of medication to treat the volume of the new water not the whole tank. That way the amount of medication in the tank stays the same.

 

[Sunnyfish]

I mean adding the dose you started with to the water that you're adding. Say, if you're doing a 10 litre water change, then you dose the water you're adding as per the instructions that you followed when you dosed the tank earlier for the 10 litres (so 1 drop per litre - 10 drops in the bucket that you're adding on, etc). That way the water change doesn't change the levels in the tank, so you're able to change water as often as you like with no change to the levels in the tank.

That's what I was trying to explain, but not doing a very good job of it


When doing a water change, only add the amount of medication to treat the volume of the new water not the whole tank. That way the amount of medication in the tank stays the same.

that makes sense. i have to admit i was slightly confused at first, so thank you both for the elaboration.