Best Value Ferts?

[JenCliBee]

So rather than mixing all of these:
• 48g Potassium Nitrate
• 2.2g Potassium Phosphate
• 17g Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate
• 0.5g E300 Ascorbic Acid
• 0.2g E202 Potassium Sorbate
• 5g EDTA Chelated Trace Elements Mix
• 500ml water

Should I mix everything except the trace elements and add them in separately?

No, you add it altogether, that's why it is an all in one mix.... basically your mimicking a closest match as possible to the branded TPN+.

 

[JenCliBee]

Ah I see. Thanks fishyjake. So I guess even though TPN+ says to dose once weekly, if you dosed in smaller amounts daily then you can ensure there will be more nutrients available to the plants at all times.

TPN+ says dose once weekly, 1ml/10L, what ratio should you aim for when dosing daily?

Dosing would all depend on what your plants are telling you... start off at 1-2 ml per 10 litres daily and then see from there if you feel it needs more... i dose 5ml daily on a 50l tank but plant mass is quite high.

 

[Joshwainwright]

Oh, okay.

That will be much easier

Thanks.

 

[aaronnorth]

Ah I see. Thanks fishyjake. So I guess even though TPN+ says to dose once weekly, if you dosed in smaller amounts daily then you can ensure there will be more nutrients available to the plants at all times.

TPN+ says dose once weekly, 1ml/10L, what ratio should you aim for when dosing daily?

Dosing would all depend on what your plants are telling you... start off at 1-2 ml per 10 litres daily and then see from there if you feel it needs more... i dose 5ml daily on a 50l tank but plant mass is quite high.

I would start off less at 1ml per 20l daily,
That should be enough, if not raise the dose to 1ml per 10l daily, that is certainly ample.
I used to dose 5ml on my 60l daily which had 2.7wpg T5, CO2 injection and high plant mass

 

[flix_cw]

I would start off less at 1ml per 20l daily,
That should be enough, if not raise the dose to 1ml per 10l daily, that is certainly ample.
I used to dose 5ml on my 60l daily which had 2.7wpg T5, CO2 injection and high plant mass

Interesting. Why would Tropica suggest 1ml/10L ONCE A WEEK? Wouldn't it be in their interest to tell you to dose that DAILY? Surely they would sell more?

 

[JenCliBee]

I would start off less at 1ml per 20l daily,
That should be enough, if not raise the dose to 1ml per 10l daily, that is certainly ample.
I used to dose 5ml on my 60l daily which had 2.7wpg T5, CO2 injection and high plant mass

You may well be correct ... i however don't consider amble as acceptable... i would much rather overdose than underdose and why my dosing was probably a little high to your liberal (ample) dosing regime.

I also don't consider ample as correct as what the plants are actually telling you, if you give somebody a set dosage and say that would be ample (IE...more than enough) (especially to less experienced people), then they may have a tendency to think this dosage would and should stay at that amount full time without change or as there tank mass gets larger and then when problems occur..automatically blame other factors rather than lack of nutrients.

I myself consider what the plants tell me a far better way than going by anybody else's 'ample' estimations going from there own experiences... i would have thought you yourself would have considered not everybody's tank would grow the same even with the same or similar setups.... to many other variations can occur to change that.

Even with an all in one method it isn't a bad idea to use a similar style of dosing to the EI method in regards to to much is better and then reset with your weekly water change.

 

[aaronnorth]

then they may have a tendency to think this dosage would and should stay at that amount full time without change or as there tank mass gets larger and then when problems occur

I understand what you are saying,
but I also think you are being a bit picky;

I myself consider what the plants tell me a far better way than going by anybody else's 'ample' estimations going from there own experiences...

.

I too go on what the plants are telling me, otherwise there is no other measurable way to fix the problems. It isn't just from my experience, the "1ml per 20l" starting point has been passed around for years.

i would have thought you yourself would have considered not everybody's tank would grow the same even with the same or similar setups.... to many other variations can occur to change that

I do, but doubling the dose to 1ml per 10l from the start is a bit extreme IMO, going back to my 60l tank with 2.7WPG, you can't get much more high tech, and from when that was setup people are now using lower light intensities these days as we have realised you don't need all that light - which is why I use it as an example.
It's like the way which EI was calculated, it was based on a tank that was pushed to the extremeties, exceed these and your tank will fail

if my high tech tank was fine on lower dosages than you was suggesting, then I consider your figures to be 'ample' for the OP considering they only have 1.2WPG, I seriously doubt he will need 1ml per 10l anytime soon.

Most of the time it is CO2 related anyway, rather than nutrient related when you get to the levels of light intensity I was running. I run my CO2 levels to at least 35ppm (I couldn't measure above that lol)

Interesting. Why would Tropica suggest 1ml/10L ONCE A WEEK? Wouldn't it be in their interest to tell you to dose that DAILY? Surely they would sell more?

You have to remember they have to work on the fact they are selling to people who want a basic fert for their fish tank. They do not want to run into any problems with fish health if the levels become too high.
When people are suggesting to dose daily, we are usually dealing with people who have a serious interest in wanting the best for their tank so it is fine to reccomend this.

Thanks, Aaron

 

[JenCliBee]

then they may have a tendency to think this dosage would and should stay at that amount full time without change or as there tank mass gets larger and then when problems occur

I understand what you are saying,
but I also think you are being a bit picky


Not sure why im been picky?..... having the air of caution for a member that is currently starting his very first planted tank, he shouldn't be generalised at and be given the info to the fullest extent.. this saves a later on thread, saying "i have a serious algae problem" or "i have algae, my lighting is to low/high" etc etc. Trying to combat a potential problem with giving the full info from the off set was all i was suggesting. I don't think i was been picky and if that's how you saw it then all i can do is apologise

I myself consider what the plants tell me a far better way than going by anybody else's 'ample' estimations going from there own experiences...

.


I too go on what the plants are telling me, otherwise there is no other measurable way to fix the problems. It isn't just from my experience, the "1ml per 20l" starting point has been passed around for years.

Not the impression from info ive always read and led to believe which is 1ml per 10l.... this info was also confirmed in my earlier stages of plant keeping by Mr farmer himself (when inquiring about a lower light leveled tank).... so as you can see this isn't just a good level experienced from me but a level that was advised to me from a very well respected aquascaper

i would have thought you yourself would have considered not everybody's tank would grow the same even with the same or similar setups.... to many other variations can occur to change that

I do, but doubling the dose to 1ml per 10l from the start is a bit extreme IMO, going back to my 60l tank with 2.7WPG, you can't get much more high tech, and from when that was setup people are now using lower light intensities these days as we have realised you don't need all that light - which is why I use it as an example.
It's like the way which EI was calculated, it was based on a tank that was pushed to the extremeties, exceed these and your tank will fail
if my high tech tank was fine on lower dosages than you was suggesting, then I consider your figures to be 'ample' for the OP considering they only have 1.2WPG, I seriously doubt he will need 1ml per 10l anytime soon.

Why by exceeding the limits will the tank fail?, the whole process of EI is by exceeding the level of nutrients the plants need and basically resetting the balance each week with big water change. so within that week if you overdosed even to level i suggested, it would be 0'ed out by the time the water change was made..... plants i thought would absorb everything that was needed and then what ever is surplus would stay within the water column untill removed.. hence the water change?.... so i don't understand how it would make the tank fail?


Most of the time it is CO2 related anyway, rather than nutrient related when you get to the levels of light intensity I was running. I run my CO2 levels to at least 35ppm (I couldn't measure above that lol)

Interesting. Why would Tropica suggest 1ml/10L ONCE A WEEK? Wouldn't it be in their interest to tell you to dose that DAILY? Surely they would sell more?

You have to remember they have to work on the fact they are selling to people who want a basic fert for their fish tank. They do not want to run into any problems with fish health if the levels become too high.
When people are suggesting to dose daily, we are usually dealing with people who have a serious interest in wanting the best for their tank so it is fine to reccomend this.

Thanks, Aaron

Overall, my dosing was agrred to be to much but for good reason.... levels from experiences that have worked best for me and from info given to me from far more experienced people.

It was never meant as a guaranteed dosing regime but a guide to avoid any potential problems from lack of ferts.... me and you would probably pick up on lack of dosing plant related problems instantly or fast enough to avoid any pain and hassle it may cause , however a member who is currently setting there first planted tank up may not and find the problem to late.

Anyways a good well mannered deliberation of what works for one and what works for another can only be good for the OP to get a full perspective of how different people get different experiences from very obviously different methods

 

[aaronnorth]

Why by exceeding the limits will the tank fail?, the whole process of EI is by exceeding the level of nutrients the plants need and basically resetting the balance each week with big water change. so within that week if you overdosed even to level i suggested, it would be 0'ed out by the time the water change was made..... plants i thought would absorb everything that was needed and then what ever is surplus would stay within the water column untill removed.. hence the water change?.... so i don't understand how it would make the tank fail?

Water changes are not for resetting the nutrient levels, Water changes are there for removing organic matter, ammonia and algae spores.
sorry, I mean by going past the light intensity set when EI was calculated (6wpg), not the nutrient levels, should have been clearer.
The levels wouldn't go back to 0ppm either, if you remove 50% of the water, you remove 50% of the waters contents.

Not the impression from info ive always read and led to believe which is 1ml per 10l.... this info was also confirmed in my earlier stages of plant keeping by Mr farmer himself (when inquiring about a lower light leveled tank).... so as you can see this isn't just a good level experienced from me but a level that was advised to me from a very well respected aquascaper

Well all I can say is when I first started I was told 1ml per 20l from the very same Mr. Farmer! I can dig out some old posts for you if you like, I'll have to PM you them though as they are on another forum.

Here are some on TFF, by other members aswell.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/319337-tpn-recommended-dosage/page__view__findpost__p__2650421

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/333927-tpn-question/page__view__findpost__p__2773014

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/273327-dosing-tpn/
And on that one I say I dose only 3ml on my 60l, not the 5ml I originally thought lol

These are the maximum uptake rates (based on a tank with no limiting factors):
Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week/ 2.85ppm day
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week/ 0.43ppm day
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week/ 4.29ppm day
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week/ 1.43ppm day


1ml per 10litres adds this (the figures in brackets are for 1ml per 20l):
DIY TPN+ (3)
5.9ppm NO3 (2.95ppm)
0.31ppm PO4(0.16ppm)
3.9ppm K (1.95ppm)
0.39ppm Mg (0.12ppm)

Now you may be thinking that only the Nitrate is supplied in surplus for my figures (in fact it is for yours too but lets ignore that), but lets go back to the fact that this was based on a tank with 6wpg T5 & 45ppm+ CO2 (no livestock were in the tank).
I had just under half the lighting the EI tank did, so we can make a reasonable assumption that the uptake rates were halved - in which case my figures would cover those uptake rates.
I have seen only few tanks with more than 3WPG+, most stick to around 2WPG, so that is why the 1ml per 20l, in theory, should cover the plants needs.
Considering the OP has 5x less light than the EI tank, I believe 1ml per 20l will be sufficient, if it isn't, then yes, I'm wrong, but I have never said you can't raise the dose, I just think its silly starting off that high.

The point I'm trying to make is, I had over 2x as much light & CO2 injection over the OP, and I was dosing at less than (or possibly half) the levels you advised,

Anyways a good well mannered deliberation of what works for one and what works for another can only be good for the OP to get a full perspective of how different people get different experiences from very obviously different methods

Absolutley, I'm just trying to save you money, but there of course there is no problem in you carrying on, but we'll have to agree to disagree

info given to me from far more experienced people.

but a level that was advised to me from a very well respected aquascaper

Far more experienced? I have been keeping planted tanks for 4years+ now!
I may not be the best aquascaper, it isn't what interests me, but I do enjoy the science behind it much more, I think George is the opposite to me, if you want advice on aquascaping then go to George, but I bet I can at least match his knowledge in chemistry The health of my plants isn't any worse off than his - just the composition lol



Thanks, Aaron

 

[JenCliBee]

First off, can i say excellent bit of information which everybody will gain from.. not just the OP

Why by exceeding the limits will the tank fail?, the whole process of EI is by exceeding the level of nutrients the plants need and basically resetting the balance each week with big water change. so within that week if you overdosed even to level i suggested, it would be 0'ed out by the time the water change was made..... plants i thought would absorb everything that was needed and then what ever is surplus would stay within the water column untill removed.. hence the water change?.... so i don't understand how it would make the tank fail?

Water changes are not for resetting the nutrient levels, Water changes are there for removing organic matter, ammonia and algae spores.

This goes without saying... however by me saying it resets the levels i probably could have described it better..so... dilutes would be more appropriate.. yes?

sorry, I mean by going past the light intensity set when EI was calculated (6wpg), not the nutrient levels, should have been clearer.
The levels wouldn't go back to 0ppm either, if you remove 50% of the water, you remove 50% of the waters contents.

No but the levels would be halved from what left in the water column which could potentially be very little dependant on levels dosed... again something which i could have explained a little better.

Not the impression from info ive always read and led to believe which is 1ml per 10l.... this info was also confirmed in my earlier stages of plant keeping by Mr farmer himself (when inquiring about a lower light leveled tank).... so as you can see this isn't just a good level experienced from me but a level that was advised to me from a very well respected aquascaper

Well all I can say is when I first started I was told 1ml per 20l from the very same Mr. Farmer! I can dig out some old posts for you if you like, I'll have to PM you them though as they are on another forum.

Here are some on TFF, by other members aswell.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/319337-tpn-recommended-dosage/page__view__findpost__p__2650421

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/333927-tpn-question/page__view__findpost__p__2773014

Little confused here and apologise if i have missed something that would make sense lol

5ml per 100l every day or every other day

This was one of the dosing amounts put forward by you in this first link, this equates to 2.5ml per 50l daily or every other day 2.5ml(1.25ml daily).

You've linked to threads in which you've advised the dosing be the same or similar to my methods, quick scan of them all and your it pretty much states it in most apart from 1 i think..... again i took this info initially from the first link.


http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/273327-dosing-tpn/
And on that one I say I dose only 3ml on my 60l, not the 5ml I originally thought lol

These are the maximum uptake rates (based on a tank with no limiting factors):
Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week/ 2.85ppm day
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week/ 0.43ppm day
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week/ 4.29ppm day
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week/ 1.43ppm day


1ml per 10litres adds this (the figures in brackets are for 1ml per 20l):
DIY TPN+ (3)
5.9ppm NO3 (2.95ppm)
0.31ppm PO4(0.16ppm)
3.9ppm K (1.95ppm)
0.39ppm Mg (0.12ppm)

Now you may be thinking that only the Nitrate is supplied in surplus for my figures (in fact it is for yours too but lets ignore that), but lets go back to the fact that this was based on a tank with 6wpg T5 & 45ppm+ CO2 (no livestock were in the tank).
I had just under half the lighting the EI tank did, so we can make a reasonable assumption that the uptake rates were halved - in which case my figures would cover those uptake rates.
I have seen only few tanks with more than 3WPG+, most stick to around 2WPG, so that is why the 1ml per 20l, in theory, should cover the plants needs.
Considering the OP has 5x less light than the EI tank, I believe 1ml per 20l will be sufficient, if it isn't, then yes, I'm wrong, but I have never said you can't raise the dose, I just think its silly starting off that high.

But i guess there is just where my opinion differs.. I'm in the mind set of dosing higher initially to prevent the possible causes of plants lacking there nutrients rather than waiting and seeing if the plants are lacking nutrients and then acting upon it... the cost of a mix your making yourself really is so minute that an extra bit over the 'recommended' dosage isn't gonna break any sort of bankruptcy levels.... my advise for levels is just that... advise and not set in stone.
The point I'm trying to make is, I had over 2x as much light & CO2 injection over the OP, and I was dosing at less than (or possibly half) the levels you advised,

I never disagreed my levels were high, the info i gave was from my experience from dosing on a similar sized 50l tanks with small to large plant mass setups and the initial info that was given to me and that i have read throughout my time in keeping plants.

You may well have 20-30 links saying the dosage can be 1ml per 20l, however i could probably find just as many if not more that either say 1-2ml per 10l or from people that are dosing 10 ml on a 50l tank with excellent results. swings and roundabouts with no SET level as such.

Anyways a good well mannered deliberation of what works for one and what works for another can only be good for the OP to get a full perspective of how different people get different experiences from very obviously different methods

Absolutley, I'm just trying to save you money, but there of course there is no problem in you carrying on, but we'll have to agree to disagree

The cost of saving money is so small while making your own mix is to me so little it wouldn't really matter on that amount of overdosing.... however if i was to use branded TPN+ then yes maybe this advise given on here for the OP may have been a little more conservative.... but the OP has already stated he was going to mix his own.

info given to me from far more experienced people.

but a level that was advised to me from a very well respected aquascaper

Far more experienced? I have been keeping planted tanks for 4years+ now!
I may not be the best aquascaper, it isn't what interests me, but I do enjoy the science behind it much more, I think George is the opposite to me, if you want advice on aquascaping then go to George, but I bet I can at least match his knowledge in chemistry The health of my plants isn't any worse off than his - just the composition lol

Sorry i think you misunderstood what i meant.... i meant more experienced than me.. not you ... i had no idea up to now how much experience you had and im not disagreeing how much you know on the scientific background of it.

Sorry if that came across wrong... my wording obviously isn't great lol..




Thanks, Aaron

Cheers , Jake

 

[aaronnorth]

5ml per 100l every day or every other day

This was one of the dosing amounts put forward by you in this first link, this equates to 2.5ml per 50l daily or every other day 2.5ml(1.25ml daily).
You've linked to threads in which you've advised the dosing be the same or similar to my methods, quick scan of them all and your it pretty much states it in most apart from 1 i think..... again i took this info initially from the first link.

Have I? I can't work it out?

5ml per 100l is the same as 1ml per 20l, I have just scaled it up by 5x.

I understand that;
2.5ml per 50l is the same,
1.25ml per 25l is the same

So to work out what we need for 20l, we need to take off 5litres
1.25ml/25 = 0.05ml (per 1 litre)
0.05ml*5 = 0.25ml (per 5litres)
1.25-0.25 = 1ml per 20litres

You have just gone the long way round to get the same answer, or am I missing something?

Water changes are not for resetting the nutrient levels, Water changes are there for removing organic matter, ammonia and algae spores.

This goes without saying... however by me saying it resets the levels i probably could have described it better..so... dilutes would be more appropriate.. yes?

Yes, I understand what you mean, but it is just a common misconception that the water changes are there for primarily removing the nutrients, so I just thought I would clear that up

however i could probably find just as many if not more that either say 1-2ml per 10l or from people that are dosing 10 ml on a 50l tank with excellent results. swings and roundabouts with no SET level as such.

Can't argue about that, fair point lol

Sorry i think you misunderstood what i meant.... i meant more experienced than me.. not you ... i had no idea up to now how much experience you had and im not disagreeing how much you know on the scientific background of it.
Sorry if that came across wrong... my wording obviously isn't great lol..

No worries

Thanks, Aaron

 

[JenCliBee]

Have I? I can't work it out?

5ml per 100l is the same as 1ml per 20l, I have just scaled it up by 5x.

I understand that;
2.5ml per 50l is the same,
1.25ml per 25l is the same

So to work out what we need for 20l, we need to take off 5litres
1.25ml/25 = 0.05ml (per 1 litre)
0.05ml*5 = 0.25ml (per 5litres)
1.25-0.25 = 1ml per 20litres

You have just gone the long way round to get the same answer, or am I missing something?

Yes mate and sorry, it was late last night and i completely misunderstood the calculations lol.... i really should pay more attention lol

Yes, I understand what you mean, but it is just a common misconception that the water changes are there for primarily removing the nutrients, so I just thought I would clear that up

Fair point and yes something i agree should have been elaborated on

No worries

Thanks, Aaron

Cheers, Jake