Aggressive Dwarf Gourami

[hikinandbikin]

I just got three male Dwarf Gourami's (traditional, powder blue and sunset red). I actually bought the Traditional first with a different blue but he was beating up the blue pretty bad and I didn't want to kill him so I took him back and replaced him with two others to try to break things up a bit. The group is working much better but the traditional is still very aggressive and the new blue is hands down the weakest in the group (He does a good job of avoiding the trad who seems most interested in chasing the more competative sunset). Now to the questions.
1. It seems like this is perhaps normal for dwarf gouramis. Yes? No?
2. Because the traditional has had more time should I quarantine him? I was also considering buying one of those 3 stage separated breeders that hang in the tank (I would eventually like to breed so perhaps this is good perhaps not)? Would the in tank solution be enough separation or does he really need to be out of the tank completely? Also are the breeding sub containers useful for gourami's or will they not breed unless they are in a "normal" environment.
3. I have also been considering just getting a 5 to 10 gal secondary tank the only problem is the cost of getting all the stuff for setup. Would this be so much better as to be worthwhile? As we all know "Money doesn't grow on trees" Especially not with baby people in the family. Perhaps one of those little eclipse type systems with built in filter?
4. Lastly does anyone know of a place to get female dwarf gourami in the Seattle, WA area? I have not been able to find any or even been able to find a place that can order them. Unfortunately, I cannot afford the $50 shipping from online Fish stores.
Thanks for the help.
Wyatt

55 Gal Tank (PH 7 Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 40-60)
1 clown loach (I know he needs friends but his friends are spendy and he came with the tank)
5 Harlequin Rasbora
3 Male Dwarf Gouramis
1 Java Moss the Gouramis love to nibble at

 

[sylvia]

Yes, this is normal behaviour. There are a couple of ways you could improve the situation - one would be to add 6 females (2 per male) or a couple more males of the same size to spread the aggression out further or, much more improtantly, to add some more hiding places - particularly tall or floating plants - so that each of the males can comfortably establish a territory. Note that adding more males realy is the least desirable solution as they will be rather crowded. Even if this reduces aggression, ti won't realy make them more comfortable.

It also helps to feed them quite often, small amounts each time so they feel less like they need to compete for the food and it is also a good idea to feed them at 3 different points in the tank or feed both floating and sinking foods at the same time to reduce the number of times they are forced to 'meet' whilst feeding. Removing the most aggressive male for a week or so may help - it's certainly worth a try BUT try adding mroe plants and re-aranging the tank's decor a bit beforehand as it'll cause the gourami (unecessary) stress to move him from tank to tank that, perhaps, could be avoided.

I'm not clear on what you mean about the '3-stage breeders'. For breeding gouramies they certainly won't be of use. To breed dwarfs, a seperate breeding tank is best. If the breeder are small, they will also cause the fish stress and, in fact, are not reccomended for any species - IMO.
If by '3-stage' you're saying they are one on top fo the other, then there's another valid reason for not using them for gouramies - namely that gouramies can suffocate if they don't have access to atmospheric air.

Getting another tank to use for quarantine/hospital/isolation of fish is a very worthy investment and actualy shouldn't cost much. I live in the UK and bought a 6 gallon recently for about £15 plus a small sponge filter and heater and cover. Nothing else is necessary except mature filter media from an established tank and a small ceramic pot or cave to act as a hiding place. I bought this second hand and didn't realy search much for a 'bargain' because I needed the extra tank immediately. In the US things tend to be cheaper by comparison (speaking in terms of US dollars as, obviously, there are more dollars to the pound ). If you were to check ebay or your local newspaper or similar adverts for 2nd-hand tanks, I'm shure you could find a cheap one and it's deffinately worth it.

However, note that for seperation purposes, removing one of the dwarf gouramies won't improve the situation - one of the remaining 2 will simply fill in his place and bully the other. Not to emntion that, unless you go for an 8-10 gallon, it won't be big enough for the dwarf to lvie in comfortably.

Having said that, like I said, it's a worthy investment - you'll save later when you need to treat fish for disease as you'll have a smaller volume to work with and you'll prevent excess loss of fishy lives by preventing the spread of disease both from your own fish and new arrivals. Not to mention that, if you do breed your gouramies, this could make the perfect breeding tank

About the eclipse systems - I've heard mixed reviews and, personaly, think they cost more than they are worth. In particular you need to consider that having an in-built filter, however convenient it seems now, could prove impractical in future - what will you do if it breaks down or if you need to clean it out? What if you use the tank for breeding - remember gourami fry are tiny and can get sucked up by filters if you're not careful?

The way I see it, you may as well buy your typical, cheap, plain glass tank + equipment second hand. It'll cost less and it'll work just as well (if not better!).

About getting females, sorry, I don't know - but do check the buying/selling section of our own forum. Also, I know you said you can't find anyone to order them for you but, maybe it's because they think you'll only be ordering one?

BTW, just one more thought - if you were to get females, they'd likely be juveniles - or at least younger than your current males. That could mean that they are also smaller so you may have problems when trying to add them.

On a related note, it may be a better idea, seeing as you'd like to breed in future, to return 2 of your 3 male dwarfs. Dwarfs are particularly prone to disease - as you may or may not be aware - so this may be the most stress-free solution.

That way you also get round the problem of the females being attacked when added - if you only have one male, you can add more than just 2 females (ie per male) for the single gourami - say 4 or even 5. That way, his attention will realy be devided and none of the new females will realy be in danger of being exceptionaly stressed out Of course, you could wait until you have access to some females before returning 2 of the males - meanwhile, re-arange the tank, feed them seperately, add more hiding places/territories etc like I described at the start of this post to reduce aggression.

 

[hikinandbikin]

Last Night:
So last night I rearranged all of the furniture in the aquarium (both plants and rocks). I also realized that I have been feeding the Gouramis on one side of the tank (it is 4' long). I think that has been making them all want to establish territory on the one end of the tank. When I fed this morning I fed the two more passive ones on one end and the aggressive one on the other. He seems to have chosen the end with less moving water (the HOB just left of center). I know gouramis are more calm water fish should I expect the others to actually set up shop on the side with the filter or will they likely just keep getting chased around in the other guys area.

Feeding:
I have been feeding flake and freeze dried BBS and some vegi flakes. The really passive fish barely eats. He spends a lot of time nibbling at the Java Moss and catches a few of the sinking flakes but doesn't make a whole lot of effort, like he is not hungry. He is not showing any other signs of stress or sickness and his color is much brighter now that when I bought him. I am feeding once in the morning and 2-3 mini feedings in the evening.

Three Stage Breeder:
They are little hang on tank separaters. About 12" long x 6" wide x 8" deep. The bottom 2" has a removable grating so fry and eggs can swim/fall in to safety. The top can be divided into two 6" x 6" cubbies to use it as a fish separator. Apparently they are more useful for breeding live bearers and danio. I was thinking of getting one as a method to keep the aggressor in the tank but seperate from the other two, hoping it would let them have time to establish there own space and then let the other back in once the two have some confidence.

Quarantine tank
I have been watching for some and unfortunately missed someone giving away a 10-20 gallon last night on Craigslist (if your not familiar amazing free classifieds). I decided a second 10 or 20 gallon would be an appropriate tank so I will get started on that hunt. I figure I should be able to find some parent selling the childs failed attempt at aquariums. (I know I had one as a kid).

Females
If I am able to get some females, should I put them into the quarantine for a while to get them healthy after the transit and life in another tank. Hopefully I would be able to get them a little stronger.

Does this sound like a reasonable approach?
I appreciated your thorough response. Thanks
Wyatt

 

[sylvia]

First with the filter, you may want to try lessening the flow or changing its direction - even a tiny alteration will be noticed by the fish and may help. Chances are the other 2 males will still establish territories near the filter if they have to but you could try to make them more comfortable anyway.

I get what you're reffering to with the breeder now I personaly feel this would be stressful on the male and you need to keep in mind that one of the others would be likely to take over his position eventualy anyway.
However, it could be worth a try for a few days as it sounds like its quite a large contraption so perhaps won't be too bad - but if the fish shows signs of stress after being in there for an hour or so, return him to the main tank.

Also, I think I mentioned earlier that adding more tall and floating plants will probably help - it may be best to try this before resorting to isolation. Besides, you'll need mroe hiding places once you add females anyway.

Yes, quarantine the females - not just to get them stronger/larger so they can handle the males better but also because dwarfs, being as prone to illness as they are, often carry disease - and you obviously won't want to itnroduce a disease into an established tank.

It sounds like you have things pretty well planned out so good luck - do post if/when you get the females - I'd love to hear how things go

 

[ash]

hi,

i've only got the one dwarf male in a 4ft tank, recently he's beginning to get aggressive with my panda corys, could u recommend some more robust playmates for him or do i have to introduce two females? (i'd prefer not to get females)

 

[sylvia]

I am surprised that you are having this problem. even the mroe aggressive gourami species rarely pay attention to bottom-dwelling fish like cories. What I would suggest is that you plant the tank to provide the gourami with more cover, a more secure-fealing territory and less visibility - particularly with tall or floating species - and also add some ceramic pots, caves or rockwork for your cories to hide in.

Adding a pair of females is probably not a good idea at the moment as you may find you have a particularly aggressive individual (considering he's going after cories!). In future, once you know what is causing the aggression, perhaps it'll be an option.

You mention the dwarf and cories - but what else is in the tank? If nothing else is in there, perhaps you should add some kind of quick schooling fish or something along those lines. for example, a trio of cherry barbs and/or a school of checker barbs would serve as a distraction but are also beautiful in their own right, won't nip and are quick enough to not be harmed by the gourami. You could also add a trio of swordtails. They are hardy fish and surprisingly tough in terms of being able to 'stand up to' bullies.

Have you considered that the fish is perhaps just 'following' the cories to scrounge any tid bits they stir up? Many of my gouramies do this - particularly if they are hungry. You may want to try feeding at least twice a day if you aren't already and maybe try providing a mroe varied diet - ie: both live/frozen foods and pellets/flakes but also plenty of veggies.

Another simple way tor educe aggression is to (very gradualy to prevent shock) lower the tank's temperature to around 76-77 deg F (if it's higher than that at the moment). This lowers the fish' metabolism and makes it less active (as fish are cold blooded) and less in the mood to be aggressive.

One last thing - what's your tank's water flow like? If it's gentle, it may be worth increasing it or if it's strong, you may want to weaken it. You may find this tiny change in the environment stops the aggression altogether.

 

[ash]

wow, cheers for the huge post!

my dwarf was deffo chasing cories, i have 6 pentazona barbs in the tank but my dwarf is not interested in them!

the gourami has calmed down a bit since a huge feast of bloodworm and more regular feeding