Whirling Disease?

[Annadongela]

Hi All

I'm new here and desperate for help

My tank was set up in September 2010 - its a 240 litre tropical tank and apart from the odd infection, thrives fantastically well, always have new guppies being born!

Tank size: 240 litre
pH:
ammonia:
nitrite: no idea on any of these - if I has a problem I go to my aquatic store and get it checked!
nitrate:
kH:
gH:tank temp: 79

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior): Black Molly - corkscrewing around the tank - no previous symptoms - removed from tank immediately. 2 pencils suddenly look like their black pencil line is 'smudged', 1 neon with a bit of whitespot but have treated water, just get a general feeling all is not well.

Have researched the spiralling of the molly and it appears to be called whirling disease. Suggests I euthanise the fish (sorry, can't do it) let all the others die and completely sterilise the tank. These fish are my babies - I am devastated that I might lose them all but there appears to be no cure. Can anyone else please suggest an alternative. As I've said, this is a very healthy, happy tank usually.

Volume and Frequency of water changes: 240 lt usually a 30% change every month - this moight sound too little but actually the fish tend to get sick after the water change adn not before.

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: regular dose of nutrafin cycle, treat using esha exit and esha 2000 if ever they get white spot or finrot etc - this usually occurs following a water change. The filter is an 'out of tank' filter.

Tank inhabitants: 1 plec - approx 6 inches long, 4 pencils, 4 harlequins, 5 x-ray tetra, 9 neon tetra, 1 clown loach (1 clown loach died last week after 3 days of 'gasping for air') 5 mollies (although now only 4 in the tank!) and approx 20 adult guppies and approx 50 baby guppies/mollies

4 plants and some wood

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): within the last month have added the mollies, the clown loach that died, 5 pencils (one died within 12 hours) and 3 guppies - 1 blue and 2 red males. Plus the arrival of approximately 30 new guppy and molly babies.

Exposure to chemicals: as above

Food: tropical flake food, tetra prima mini granules and algae wafers all twice daily.

Can my fish be saved???

 

[fluttermoth]

You obviously have some sort of problem going on...

It's extremely unusual to have;

1; so many outbreaks of disease ( you have had more than one lot of whitespot for instance?! Just for comparason, in my last 14 years of fishkeeping, I've had whitespot once and have never, ever had a fish with finrot)

2; problems after a water change. Water changes are normally the very best thing you can do for sick fish; if they're getting sick after water changes, something, somewhere is very wrong...30% monthly is not very much; my tanks get 50% a week.

Get some water tests done on your tank AND your tap water and post the results; it could be whirling disease you have, but it could equally well be a water quality problem; nitrite poisoning especially can cause fish to 'whirl' in my experience.

How are you doing your water changes? Are you using a dechloinator at a proper dose? And how are you maintaining your filter? Is there any chlorinated water going through it at any time and are you making sure that you wash it out in old tank water only?

 

[Annadongela]

Hi, thanks for replying. The water changes are done at the frequency suggested by my local aquarium store who come out and do them for me and also do the necessary with the filter - the tank is at my workplace. I take on board what you're saying and will do more changes myself. I believe he just puts in the nutrafin cycle after the water change and does not do any dechlorinating. Sorry, unsure about the filter beng cleaned in old water. When I say they've had whitespot and finrot, this has been my assumption from internet reading and comparing the symptoms with my fish. I am very inexperienced and rely on my aquatic store who have done the water tests etc. On only one occasion have they said the water quality wasn't fantastic, but that it also wasn't that bad either. I sound such an amateur but as my fish breed so well and always look healthy I have assumed the information I am getting is correctly and everything is ok.

You obviously have some sort of problem going on...

It's extremely unusual to have;

1; so many outbreaks of disease ( you have had more than one lot of whitespot for instance?! Just for comparason, in my last 14 years of fishkeeping, I've had whitespot once and have never, ever had a fish with finrot)

2; problems after a water change. Water changes are normally the very best thing you can do for sick fish; if they're getting sick after water changes, something, somewhere is very wrong...30% monthly is not very much; my tanks get 50% a week.

Get some water tests done on your tank AND your tap water and post the results; it could be whirling disease you have, but it could equally well be a water quality problem; nitrite poisoning especially can cause fish to 'whirl' in my experience.

How are you doing your water changes? Are you using a dechloinator at a proper dose? And how are you maintaining your filter? Is there any chlorinated water going through it at any time and are you making sure that you wash it out in old tank water only?

 

[fluttermoth]

Ok, I see your problem...

To me it doesn't sound like you aquarium store is very competant, in all honesty

I would recommend you have read of some of the articles in the beginner's resource centre (the link is in my sig) and perhaps you'll be able to either look after the tank yourself or at least have some uderstanding of what your maintenance man should be doing.

I'm afraid guppies breeding is no idication of water quality; they breed ustoppably all the time, as long as they're alive and in water!

Do get back to us if there's anything more we can do to help.

 

[Davo86]

Hi, thanks for replying. The water changes are done at the frequency suggested by my local aquarium store who come out and do them for me and also do the necessary with the filter - the tank is at my workplace. I take on board what you're saying and will do more changes myself. I believe he just puts in the nutrafin cycle after the water change and does not do any dechlorinating. Sorry, unsure about the filter beng cleaned in old water. When I say they've had whitespot and finrot, this has been my assumption from internet reading and comparing the symptoms with my fish. I am very inexperienced and rely on my aquatic store who have done the water tests etc. On only one occasion have they said the water quality wasn't fantastic, but that it also wasn't that bad either. I sound such an amateur but as my fish breed so well and always look healthy I have assumed the information I am getting is correctly and everything is ok.

Hi, have to say not having a test kit is doing you no favours, and tbh there is no grey area with water test results they are either good or bad, ammonia and nitrite for example should be 0, if they are anything but then there is poison in the tank,

water changes should ideally be weekly and filter cleaning on an external (presuming its a cannister that sits in a cabinet underneath?) should be no more often than every 6-8weeks.

I notice you say the fish get sick after the water changes, this is easily explained; Fish do not like big changes in parameters and in a fish tank nitrate is always on the rise, (in new setups other parameters like ammonia can also rise too), therefore with water changes being done monthly there is a much bigger drop in levels directly after a waterchange is done, which stresses the fish which can result in whitespot for one, but also many other stress related diseases

Also to add guppys will breed pretty much regardless of conditions so aren't the best gauge of how good the conditions are,

 

[anon02]

I agree, you need to take a more hands on approach to fishkeeping

 

[Annadongela]

Thanks all - duly told!! Am off to buy kit tomorrow and we'll see how we go!

Cheers

 

[Annadongela]

Ok, testing kit bought along with dechlorinator!

First results are in:

PH 7.4
Ammonia 0.25ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
NITRATE 80ppm

There in lies my problme I believe!!

So I will do a 25% water change this afternoon using the dechlorinator and add a good dose nutrafin cycle.

I don't have any additional treatments for the Nitrate - do I need them??

Cheers

Oh, I should add, the black Molly I isolated yesterday is no longer corkscrewing although she is still a little lopsided, she's definitely looking better.

Once I've done the water change, can I reintroduce her as the bowl she is in has no filter or heater and I don't want to make things more difficult for her.

 

[Davo86]

Ok, testing kit bought along with dechlorinator!

First results are in:

PH 7.4
Ammonia 0.25ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
NITRATE 80ppm

There in lies my problme I believe!!

So I will do a 25% water change this afternoon using the dechlorinator and add a good dose nutrafin cycle.

I don't have any additional treatments for the Nitrate - do I need them??

Cheers

Oh, I should add, the black Molly I isolated yesterday is no longer corkscrewing although she is still a little lopsided, she's definitely looking better.

Once I've done the water change, can I reintroduce her as the bowl she is in has no filter or heater and I don't want to make things more difficult for her.

tbh the most critical reading there is ammonia, this needs to remain at 0 for the long term health of the fish,
The nitrate reading is high but not high enough to be a primary reason for your tanks issues,

no there are no additional chemicals needed for nitrate, the most effective removal is through water changes,

The molly may have a swim bladder issue if it is unable to sit straight in the water and seems to swim in circles, she will be better off back in the big tank but I don't think it is quite out of the woods just yet,

 

[fluttermoth]

80ppm of nitrate isn't a problem; the 0.25 ammonia is more of a worry; you sohuldn't ever see ammonia in a mature tank.

Do the water change and test again. Definitely put the molly back; it won't do at all well with no filter.

 

[Annadongela]

ok, first water change done on my own!!

took about 35% replaced with tap water and used a dechlorinator that you mix with the water once its back in the tank.

results are:
ph 7.4
ammonia - not quite as green as before (0.25ppm) but slightly more green that the yellow for zero - I would say

Nitrite 0
Nitrate still high - not as dark as previous at 80 but in between the 40 and 80 I would say.

So... if you thik the ammonia is more of a problem than the nitrate - how do I fix that??

Have reintroduced the Molly and for the first minute it shot around the tank like a rocket and then started corkscrewing again - I have removed it once more and it has settled down in the bowl again - have I done the right thing?
Cheers

 

[fluttermoth]

To be honest you probably need to do another, larger water change; any reading at all for ammonia is potentially lethal.
It could be that your molly is particularly sensitive to some things that your other fish aren't and that's why it's the only one being afected.
You'll need to change the water in its bowl very frequently; twice a day probably; can you float it in the tank or put it near the lights so it doean't get too cold?

 

[mattvillas]

ok, first water change done on my own!!

took about 35% replaced with tap water and used a dechlorinator that you mix with the water once its back in the tank.

results are:
ph 7.4
ammonia - not quite as green as before (0.25ppm) but slightly more green that the yellow for zero - I would say

Nitrite 0
Nitrate still high - not as dark as previous at 80 but in between the 40 and 80 I would say.

So... if you thik the ammonia is more of a problem than the nitrate - how do I fix that??

Have reintroduced the Molly and for the first minute it shot around the tank like a rocket and then started corkscrewing again - I have removed it once more and it has settled down in the bowl again - have I done the right thing?
Cheers

Hi. I had two mollys that seem to go crazy after water changes, while my platys and guppies seemed fine. This is what got me to think of testing my tap water for ammonia. And unfortunately it has around .25-.50ppm. The mollies seemed a lot more sensitive to the ammonia levels.

Test your tap water and see if there is any ammonia in it. If so, consider getting a product like Seachem Prime that not only dechlorinates but also detoxifies ammonia.

Unfortunately my mollies both passed away a couple weeks ago, I'm assuming to ammonia poisoning.

 

[Annadongela]

Update!
Been unable to get into work since Thursday so the fish have had to fend for themselves, other than being fed. My oldest guppie, 1 neon, and as expected, the molly were all dead this morning. Was suprised about the guppie as she had seemed fine but the neon did have a weakness - no signs of him at all actually but he definitely wasn't there.
Anyway, I did the tests again this morning and am happy to report 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 20ppm of nitrate, so I didn't do the water change I had planned to do!

The neon I mentioned above having a weakness, it was very odd. One day a few months ago it appeared that his mouth had white fluff on it. I treated with esha exit and esha 2000 as I was unsure whether it was a fungus, velvet or whitespot. Anyway, he seemed to recover, the bit that had appeared white turned back to silver but it always looked loose, like he had a bobble in his mouth. It didn't stop him feeding but I assumed it would make him weak. So as I said, there is no signs of him or his carcass this morning, bit I did notice that now another neon has the same thing only this time on its bottom lip instead of top.
Suggestions??

 

[Annadongela]

The plot thickens.

Mr Wiggles (the remaining clown loach) is now looking very pale and another of my million guppies is very listless. Above mentioned neon still has the white fluffy lip too.

Suggestions please?