What The * Is It?

[LauraFrog]

AAAARGHHH!!!!

Lost two bettas last week to something identified by Wilder as columnaris. I have had columnaris before, I'm surprised I didn't recognise it. The last lot that i had responded to tetracycline and was gone within a week. Well this is worse.

Has anybody ever seen a strain of columnaris that causes the fish to go from healthy (asymptomatic) to dead - like, white eye white fin dead - in less than 18 hours? I sure as heck haven't. Tetracycline does absolutely nothing. It has attacked fish that were perfectly healthy, well fed and happy, in immaculate water - no stress there. The only means of introduction I can think of is on the tip of a feeding pipette. If this is the case I have several other fish that have been fed with the same pipette. I don't even know if I should pretreat with tetracycline because apparently this strain does not respond to it. I personally hate pretreating because it's the abuse of antibiotics that have created resistant strains in the first place but I'm grabbing at straws here because my tricolour BF is the next one down if a few drops of infected water is enough to kill a healthy, unstressed fish.

I'm pretty cut up about the whole thing though. I just lost an expensive crowntail, tricolour cambo CT, four ray, my best breeding prospect, that was in absolutely perfect water, and he only died because I was feeding live food instead of pellets. So I do everything right and the fish dies!

Anyway, has anybody encountered this strain before. Does it respond to anything at all? Should I try overdosing the tetracycline? What about oxytet? Or could I be wrong? Has anybody seen something that causes the fish's scales to totally lose colour as it spreads up the body, growing orangish (on the female) or whitish (on this one) fuzz that spreads to the gills and then kills the fish? The majority of the lesions were on the belly, not the back or the mouth but they spread so rapidly that they were fatal. No sign of finrot but these are bettas with such long fins that it's kind of hard to tell.

 

[tangokitty]

I've never even heard of columnaris. Hope you don't loose any more fish!

 

[Tolak]

If it isn't responding to one of the tetracycline drugs you may want to consider a sulfa drug. Also consider medicating for 10-14 days, with a large daily water change & remed.

 

[cowbla1]

Oh noes, PROTECT YOUR FISH ITS SUPERCOLUMNARIS!!!
I've never heard of it happening that fast, sorry for your losses.

 

[WILDER]

Yes columnaris can kill fast if its a bad strain.
Also columnaris can cause internal damage.
it can also wipe out a tank full of fish out if its a bad strain.
I would raise the temp with tetracycline.

There is alot of debate about what should be done with the temperature when treating a bacterial infection, especially with Columnaris. On theory is to turn the temperature down, as columnaris thrives in warm water. so lowering the temperature in the tank slows down the growth of the bacteria.

Another theory is turning the temperature up increases the effectiveness of the antibiotics. Here is some more info on this theory. <a href="http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?s=&...t&p=1094004" target="_blank">http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?s=&...t&p=1094004</a>

The choice is really up to you, there is info supporting both sides of the argument. Personally I would increase the temperature since you are from the US and have decent anti-bacterial medicines avaliable


Take a look at this thread.

http/www.fishforums.net/content/forum/13...Before-It-Dies/

 

[Tolak]

If you turn up the temp with a med that is not doing the job (tetracycline) you have just helped the bacteria (columnaris). If the med you are using is not doing the trick, it's time to change meds. Beyond the sulfa drugs there is kanamicin, as well as gentamicin, both of which are used to treat gram negative infections, which columnaris is.

 

[LauraFrog]

Wilder, I live in Australia, and it's very hard to get meds. I can get sulfa drugs as well as tetracycline and possibly oxytetracycline. That's it, short of going to the vet's and trying to talk them into handing over drugs that would be worth $45 or 50 - if I could convince them that I actually needed them. Failing that I'd have to show them the fish, another $50.
The problem with this foul thing is that it kills so fast there's no time to change meds. I'll get some sulfa drugs and try that if another one goes down. Fortunately I have not managed to contaminate the big tank or the small betta containers outside, and the 20 L on my desk is currently empty, I managed to kill off the cycle and I was busily fishless cycling it. It will have to be bleached because I freaked out and chucked an infected fish in there, but there are worse things than having to restart a fishless cycle. Much worse things. *shudder*

I always continue medications for a long time if at all practical, but there's no point in these cases. The fish are dead. This is driving me up the wall, I've been running around checking the bettas for signs of slime or white gunk every five minutes and driving my parents nuts. It's made worse because I did something really stupid. We've just finished the musical and I was utterly wrecked, so in my half asleep state I put a breeding net in a hospital tank full of tetracycline and a betta with dropsy, and then I put the last sick fish into the breeding net. It died. I buried it. The fish that had dropsy is apparently fine. I can't believe I did that, forget half asleep, I must have been anaesthetised. The betta that had dropsy is apparently cured, eating well and no sign of bloating now. I caught it before the scales pineconed. I am going to leave him in tetracycline for at least another week though because I figure the supercolumnaris has less chance of establishing itself on an unstressed (relatively) fish that's been soaking in tetracycline for a week.

Right now though I'm terrified that this will spread through the town. I'm out of it a fair way, not connected to sewerage or town water. But if somebody flushes a dead fish or pours infected water down the drain it could end up in the river. If that happens... I don't even want to think about it. There's a rare rainbow population just downstream. I've put myself in quarantine, no fish in/out until I'm sure this is under control. I would never forgive myself if it got out and it could somehow be traced back to me. I know it must already be out there for my fish to have it, I must have gotten it from somewhere. Almost certainly a rescued fish that passed it onto a tankmate, then infected a few other tanks on equipment. It's a strong argument against rescuing bettas. *Quarantine Everything. Quarantine Everything. Quarantine EVERYTHING. Quarantine Everything. Quarantine Everything. Quarantine...*

 

[minxfishy]

Well I had a complete tank wipe out couple months back because of columnaris so I can sympathise with you. Whilst mine wasnt as quick to kill the fish, it did spread quickly and within 2 weeks, after trying the meds I had available (we can only get tetracycline on prescription from a vet here) I had lost the lot - albeit the last few I euthanised because I couldnt bear to watch them go the same way as the others, but as Wilder says, if you get a bad strain it acts swiftly.

 

[LauraFrog]

Yeah, this one is absolutely hideous. So I'm not the only person who has lost fish to columnaris without an underlying cause (like ammonia or high temperature or overcrowding or high nitrates or bullying) stressing the fish? I always thought that columnaris was something fish got when you didn't look after them or change enough of the water, or when they were weakened from something else. But this is unreal, I've lost some of my best fish.
Sorry to hear you lost everything I dont' think I could bear it if that happened, not least because my parents would ban me from buying fish for ages. I'm scared to change the water in the main tank until I've bleached all my buckets. I'm terrified that it will end up in there, I have rare livebearers in it.

 

[minxfishy]

No nothing wrong with my water, I bought some fish and didnt quarantine!!! They obviously had it when I got them, within the week of adding them, the 1st signs appeared on my gourami, then the rainbows I had, then cories, platies etc etc.

I stripped the tank down after I lost them all and bleached everything including the media and started from scratch - just remember to rinse and rinse that bucket if you bleach it.

 

[wackystarfish]

Sorry that i cant offer any advice other than good luck I really hope that that is all the damage it will do.

 

[Smokescreen]

Oh my, I'm so sorry to hear this. I'm praying for the strain to stop where it has and leave the rest of your fish untouched. Good luck, and keep us posted.

 

[WILDER]

I would change meds like tolak has suggested it eventualy has to burn itself out.
If you want to save the rest of the fish that are healthy the best thing to do is put all the sick
fish out of there misery and strip the tank down and start again. And steralise everything.
You have tryed and its so sad.
Never had a really bad strain of columnaris so not that knowledgable about it.
This is also a good link to columnaris.
http/article.discusnews.com/cat-02/columnaries.shtml

 

[LauraFrog]

Well fortunately it has remained confined to the indoors bettas. All the rest of my fish are outside and after over 24 hours since the last possible contamination of anything outside, given the speed this strain acts I hope everything is safe now. *touch wood* Even my fry are okay, and I would have thought they'd be the first to go.
The only two fish that may possibly have been exposed are both male bettas, which are in total isolation. One of them was the one with dropsy and he's soaking in tetracycline. I got him eating again today. The other is showing no signs of infection. He's bored stiff in his tiny little jar and has just blown me a huge bubblenest. I'm happy about that, I plan on breeding him if I can find a suitable female.

But since it's so easy to isolate them because they can live in very small containers temporarily, I'm going to let them take their chances. They are the two best bettas I have. If either starts showing symptoms, i will treat with sulfa drugs and failing that, euthanise. I just don't see that it can do any harm since I can feed them by sprinkling pellets in, I don't have to touch them. I won't WC without gloves on for at least two weeks and they will stay riiiight away from my other fishies.

So I have five bettas left, two are inside and in isolation and the other three are outside in a divided system with shared water. I'm going to bleach the divided tank as well, because it's full of algae anyway and since they don't have filters i don't need to worry about the cycle. I am fairly sure it wasn't exposed but I'm not going to take risks, I fed all the bettas from the same jar and it's possible I got the bacteria on my hands. (The food got chucked out). The three tanks inside are 2 identical 1.5 gals and a 6 gal. They've all been contaminated and are getting sterilised, along with all the nets, tubes and other equipment that's been in contact with any of the sick fish. I made up a huge bleach solution. I reek of it, my poor cat won't even let me pick her up. She's sick too (got caught in a snare and nearly died, $400 at least in vet bills that I don't have, thank god for parents). Like they say, it never rains but it pours.

Like I said though I'm just terrified lest this get out. I have never seen anything like it.

 

[WILDER]

Good luck laura