Water Conditioners, Cloramine Ammoina

[soritan]

What would the term "neturalizes chloramines", mean, exactly? I understand that chloramine is a toxic combination of ammonia and chlorine... which I thought meant that it treated the chlorine, thereby preventing ammonia from binding with chlorine. Now I wonder if I was too trusting....

My tank was cycled, tonnes of obsessive testing had to be right! My water got cloudy the day I was going to do my big change, so I figured it was now or never, and started on it. My 'big water change', was 60%. I read anywhere from 50% to 75% water change when doing the big one, I imagine it depends on how big your tank is and how much nitrates you had. I did a 60% water change, figuring it was a comfortable middle ground. My water was still a little cloudy after the change, but it looked quite a bit clearer and I figured the remaining cloudiness was simply stirred up debris and snail waste. I thought, "oh, my filter will handle it." After a few hours, it became apparent it wasn't going to go away while I watched, and so I figured I should just add some ammonia to it and take care of other business for the day.

Well, today, my water was still cloudy. I thought it must simply be a matter of time, so to while away the hours, I checked my nitrites and ammonia, to be sure that everything was kosher before adding my betta.

NitrItes: 0.25 ppm
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm

Wait, what? It's been 24 hours! My ammonia should have vanished within an hour or so, as well as my nitrites!

Before I did my big change, I went to the local pet store and purchased a water conditioner special for the event, making sure that none of them included ammonia on their 'fix' list. I found one called 'Bowl Prep', which said that it neutralized chloramines, and I figured that was a winner.

I think I killed off some of my bacteria in my big change, or somewhere along the lines somewhere. Maybe for a 10gal tank, changing out 6 gallons of water was being far too enthusiastic. I know I read in the stickies that if you're not careful about what conditioner you use for such a big change, you can accidently kill off part of your bacterial colony.

I am starting to honestly contemplate simply doing a big, fat water change, and plunking my single betta in there. I mean, I'm getting frustrated. I've been fishless cycling for a month now, for a betta who lives in a bowl that probably endures far greater fluctuations than the 10gal does.

I know, I won't do it, but I am seriously running on fumes here.

I emailed the company that makes 'bowl prep' to ask them if the product locks away ammonia, I was just wondering if any of you all know.


I think I mostly just needed to vent.

 

[blue_ram]

What would the term "neturalizes chloramines", mean, exactly? I understand that chloramine is a toxic combination of ammonia and chlorine... which I thought meant that it treated the chlorine, thereby preventing ammonia from binding with chlorine. Now I wonder if I was too trusting....

"neturalizes chloramines" means exactly that, neutralizes the chlorine part, so that chlorine becomes non-toxic. It doesn't do anything about the ammonia though, unless it explicitly states that it neutralizes ammonia as well.

[snip]Well, today, my water was still cloudy. I thought it must simply be a matter of time, so to while away the hours, I checked my nitrites and ammonia, to be sure that everything was kosher before adding my betta.

NitrItes: 0.25 ppm
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm

Wait, what? It's been 24 hours! My ammonia should have vanished within an hour or so, as well as my nitrites!

That depends... How long have you been cycling it? How much ammonia have you been putting in? Have you been tracking the ammonia, and nitrite level throughout cycling? If you used too much ammonia, then you may have overwhelmed the bio-filter. It will recover, but it will take some time, depending on how much ammonia you've added. Remember, small tank has very little reserve to handle excess ammonia.

Before I did my big change, I went to the local pet store and purchased a water conditioner special for the event, making sure that none of them included ammonia on their 'fix' list. I found one called 'Bowl Prep', which said that it neutralized chloramines, and I figured that was a winner.

It really doen't matter. NONE of the water conditioner actually removes ammonia from the water. It converts ammonia into ammonium or add some chemical to weakly bind to ammonia. In all cases, ammonia is still in the water, and have no effect on cycling.

I think I killed off some of my bacteria in my big change, or somewhere along the lines somewhere. Maybe for a 10gal tank, changing out 6 gallons of water was being far too enthusiastic. I know I read in the stickies that if you're not careful about what conditioner you use for such a big change, you can accidently kill off part of your bacterial colony.

Water change, even 90%, will not kill the bacteria, as most of the bacteria lives on the surface of the substrate and power filter media. I'm starting to think that water conditioner may be a suspect. Either you didn't use the proper amount, or it's defective.

I am starting to honestly contemplate simply doing a big, fat water change, and plunking my single betta in there. I mean, I'm getting frustrated. I've been fishless cycling for a month now, for a betta who lives in a bowl that probably endures far greater fluctuations than the 10gal does.

I know, I won't do it, but I am seriously running on fumes here.

I emailed the company that makes 'bowl prep' to ask them if the product locks away ammonia, I was just wondering if any of you all know.


I think I mostly just needed to vent.

Like I stated above, don't worry about water conditioners "locking away" ammonia. It has no effect on cycling. Check to see if the ammonia level is still going down. If it does, then you didn't wipe out the bacteria.

 

[soritan]

That depends... How long have you been cycling it? How much ammonia have you been putting in? Have you been tracking the ammonia, and nitrite level throughout cycling? If you used too much ammonia, then you may have overwhelmed the bio-filter. It will recover, but it will take some time, depending on how much ammonia you've added. Remember, small tank has very little reserve to handle excess ammonia.

I've been cycling it for just shy of a month, and doing daily (sometimes twice daily) checks of ammonia and nitrites, with occasional nitrate checks. I used the method where you add to 5ppm ammonia, maintain 5ppm, wait for the bacteria to be able to process 24hrs and under to 0ppm, and then began to add to 3ppm daily and tracked nitrites. Two/Three days ago, I checked my tank and the thing was all clear, ammonia and nitrites, 0ppm.

NONE of the water conditioner actually removes ammonia from the water. It converts ammonia into ammonium or add some chemical to weakly bind to ammonia. In all cases, ammonia is still in the water, and have no effect on cycling.

Well, I read in one of the stickies that it's possible to accidently damage your bacteria base if you use a water treatment that also locks ammonia, causing you to have a spike where there shouldn't be one. To be safe, I figured it would be best to plunk down the $6 extra to ensure that I had something that only removed the cloramine, chlorine, and other dangerous stuff, but Not ammonia. I figured after a month's worth of careful feeding and test tubing and staring, I shouldn't risk it. Also, as 'bowl prep' worked on half-gallon doses, I figured it would be benefical for my remaining bowl-betta. He's too old to handle a current and will most likely be in a bowl for the rest of his life (live long and prosper).


My ammonia level definately dropped, as I added a 'regular dose' of ammonia, which takes me up to 3ppm (+/-). However, that much ammonia usually is gone after just 1 or 2 hours. I can't be sure of the time, as 1 hour is simply the earliest I ever tested it and saw a 0 response on both ammonia and nitrites.

Oddly, the tank is less cloudy right now than it was just an hour or so ago. It's almost at that pretty, perfectly clear state that keeps us high strung aquarists calm. There's still a tint to it, but it's mostly gone.

I'm going to wait for those people to email me back, if it has anything in it that locks it down (in other words, converts it to ammonium), and I'm going to continue feeding pure ammonia for a couple days and tracking. Maybe use 'aged' water for my next big change, instead of treated water. I usually have around 5 gallon sized bowlslaying around the room, waiting for their turn to become a betta home.

 

[rdd1952]

Are you using a dechlorinator other than the Betta "Bowl Prep"? You need something that removes chlorine and neutralizes chloramine (I use Stress Coat from API). If you aren't removing the chlorine, it will kill the bacteria off as that is why it is in our water.

The problem with "locked" ammonia is that it will still show on tests even though it isn't toxic. I don't like the products that lock it because if I see a reading for ammonia, I don't knwo if it is safe or not.

 

[soritan]

Well, according to the bottle, it does all that. I read all the water treatment bottles there, and stayed away from anything that said it "locked away harmful ammonia!"

That's a good point with the ammonia reading being false, and I'd almost suspect that's what happened to me, except for my nitrite reading.

I'm still waiting for the company to email me back.

I'm not sure what happened, I really don't know. Maybe having all those plants threw me off, maybe the 'bowl prep' did. It's beyond my understanding.

At least I tested before I put fish in there.

 

[modernhamlet]

"neturalizes chloramines" has to mean that it renders chloramine harmless by reducing to chlorine and ammonia and then neutralizing both. If it doesn't do that, it doesn't neutralize chloramine.

That said, .25 and .25 are small blips. Don't let them get you down. I'm sure it'll be back to 0 and 0 in no time. Just keep the bacteria fed with ammonia and wait for that splendid day when both are at 0 after 24 hours again. Shouldn't be long.

BTW, do you have a nitrate test?

 

[soritan]

Yep, i just don't test for it often. when my ammonia and nitrites went to 0, i tested and my nitrates were.... hard to read. it's the liquid sort, but it's color graph and i couldn't tell one orange from another orange.

so it was 20/40 ppm.

i haven't tested for today, yet.

 

[modernhamlet]

Yep, i just don't test for it often. when my ammonia and nitrites went to 0, i tested and my nitrates were.... hard to read. it's the liquid sort, but it's color graph and i couldn't tell one orange from another orange.

so it was 20/40 ppm.

i haven't tested for today, yet.

20-40 is actually pretty reasonable, especially for just after a fishless cycle. If you can get it down to 10 or so before stocking, you're all good.

 

[soritan]

Well, that was before the 'big change', which I understand is intended to lower nitrate levels for fish. I haven't tested it after the big change yet, I admit.

My other two bottles, I use them so much, I swear they're starting to tint shades of purple and yellow. The nitrite bottle tints between yellow and deep green, and the ammonia bottle pale blue and dark purple. I can rinse out the nitrite bottle quite well and it's fine, but if I don't rinse out the ammonia bottle at least 12 times, it remains pale blue. That's from the very beginning of my fishless cycle, where I had to test repeatedly to find out what my dosage was for 5ppm -- in my case, it wound up being 103 drops! Just think how long that took me to figure that out. 5 little drops, test. 8 little drops, test. 10 little drops, test. 12 little drops, test. 5 little drops, test....

I'm going to keep my tank fishless until my day off -- for some odd reason I work all days but sundays and mondays, and keep my bacteria alive with my ammonia until it reaches 0 again for me, do another big change, and test everything again, and then add occupants. I'm almost optimistic, I almost think that'll happen before my weekend. I must be delirious.

 

[soritan]

Quick update for the curious, I just received a reply from the company that creates 'bowl prep'.

Our bowl prep removes Chlorines and breaks chloramine bonds, but does not lock up ammonia. We are currently conducting safety testing on several potential new ammonia locking ingredients. We expect to have an ammonia locking solution out on the shelves by January.

Debbie Erenstone

Product R&D
HBH PET PRODUCTS
801-541-1940
debbie@hbhpet.com

 

[modernhamlet]

Quick update for the curious, I just received a reply from the company that creates 'bowl prep'.

Our bowl prep removes Chlorines and breaks chloramine bonds, but does not lock up ammonia. We are currently conducting safety testing on several potential new ammonia locking ingredients. We expect to have an ammonia locking solution out on the shelves by January.

Debbie Erenstone

Product R&D
HBH PET PRODUCTS
801-541-1940
debbie@hbhpet.com

Wow. That's very uncool.

 

[soritan]

Which part? The "soon to be added", or what it does right now? (I imagine both, you know, ammonia already present in the water after the chloramine breaks its bond, etc...)

 

[rdd1952]

I think it's nice that they answered your email that quick. I seem to never get a response or it comes 5 to 10 days later. I hate to see another ammonia locking product though. Those products usually cause more problems than they cure. To me they give a false sense of security. People still see the ammonia present when they test and assume it's safe because of the locking products they are using but is it really safe? Only the fish know for sure and they usually "tell" you something is wrong by going belly up. By then, it's too late.

 

[modernhamlet]

Which part? The "soon to be added", or what it does right now? (I imagine both, you know, ammonia already present in the water after the chloramine breaks its bond, etc...)

My problem is that if a product says it neutralizes chloramine it should neutralize chloramine. That has to include preventing the resulting ammonia from breaking the chloramine bond. This product doesn't do that, and so shouldn't advertise that it handles chloramine, just chlorine.

 

[soritan]

I tested today, and my ammonia had fallen quite a bit(from 3.00ppm to 0.25ppm), and my nitrites had risen quite a bit (5.0ppm!).

I guess I uncycled myself somehow, this recycle suddenly doesn't seem so "mini"...

I'm going to have to wait for everyone to zero out again. Maybe I should skip a 'feeding' to let everyone catch up...