Water Chemistry

[Notsofab]

OK, so I have read countless articles and posts now on Fishless Cycling but wanted to post the following for comment:

1) I used Nutrafin 'Cycle' as directed on the bottle to prepare my tank before adding fish. Throughout the 2 week cycling process, I observed my NitrIte readings off my test scale and my NitrAte readings upto 20. So whilst I'm not saying that my tank cycled properly using them, I am prepared to state that adding the product definately did SOMETHING to my water parameters.

2)Does the presence of NitrAte in my water mean that the water is capable of producing the bacteria needed to process harmful Ammonia and break it down? The reason I ask this, if I test my tap water I get Ammonia=0, NitrIte=0 and NitrAte=10 so what is the difference (apart from temperature and chlorine) between the water in my tank and the water in my tap when the readings are the same? With these parameters when I setup my new tank, can I just leave it filtering for a couple of weeks before adding fish?

I hope I haven't missed the point!

 

[jimbooo]

sounds fine.

the nitrogen cycle is as follows (roughly, appologies to the scientists out there)

food/poo breaksdown, turns into ammonia (plus wee is almost pure ammonia), ammonia turns into NitrIte, bacteria (the good stuff) turns NitrIte to NitrAte, plants use nitrAte. cycle finished.

so if your tank niteAte is double your tap nitrAte you must have bacteria in the filter to be producing the other 10ppm.

when the tank is fully cycled the poo-ammonia-nitrIte - nitrAte bit will happen almost instantly hence readings for ammonia and nitrIte will be 0.

nitrAte will always be in the tank (unless heavily planted like mine in the sig but thats another story). at levels up to say 60ppm nitrAte isn't too toxic to fish. at about 60ppm you need to do a water change to dilute the nitrAte back to lower levels.

does that help at all?

 

[Notsofab]

sounds fine.

the nitrogen cycle is as follows (roughly, appologies to the scientists out there)

food/poo breaksdown, turns into ammonia (plus wee is almost pure ammonia), ammonia turns into NitrIte, bacteria (the good stuff) turns NitrIte to NitrAte, plants use nitrAte. cycle finished.

so if your tank niteAte is double your tap nitrAte you must have bacteria in the filter to be producing the other 10ppm.

when the tank is fully cycled the poo-ammonia-nitrIte - nitrAte bit will happen almost instantly hence readings for ammonia and nitrIte will be 0.

nitrAte will always be in the tank (unless heavily planted like mine in the sig but thats another story). at levels up to say 60ppm nitrAte isn't too toxic to fish. at about 60ppm you need to do a water change to dilute the nitrAte back to lower levels.

does that help at all?

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Yes I think that confirms that I have grasped the basics when it comes to cycling. But does it mean that given my tap water settings I can 'cycle' a new tank just by filling it with tap water and leaving it to filter for a couple of weeks? Surely if my NitrAte levels are 10 then the bacteria will begin to grow anyway?

 

[rdd1952]

Yes I think that confirms that I have grasped the basics when it comes to cycling. But does it mean that given my tap water settings I can 'cycle' a new tank just by filling it with tap water and leaving it to filter for a couple of weeks? Surely if my NitrAte levels are 10 then the bacteria will begin to grow anyway?

[snapback]905968[/snapback]​

Actually nitrate is the end result of the nitrogen cycle so it won't do anything to help cycle a tank. The starting ingredient in the cycling process is ammonia. You either add pure ammonia (fishless cycle ONLY) or the fish produce ammonia through waste. If you simply fill a tank with water, it won't cycle. Even adding a bacteria starter (I have had no luck with them at all) won't help without the presence of ammonia.

You said you did a fishless cycle. Did you add ammonia at the beginning to start the process or did you just fill the tank and wait? Since you said the nitrites were off the scale, I would imagine there had to be ammonia present at some point to produce nitrite but the nitrate at the end of a successful fishless cycle is generally off the scale too, over 100 ppm so I'm a little concerned that you only have 20 ppm and half of that came from your tap water. What are the current readings for ammonia and nitrite in your tank?

Edited for spelling

 

[jimbooo]

echo what rdd1952 said. totally correct.

 

[Notsofab]

Yes I think that confirms that I have grasped the basics when it comes to cycling. But does it mean that given my tap water settings I can 'cycle' a new tank just by filling it with tap water and leaving it to filter for a couple of weeks? Surely if my NitrAte levels are 10 then the bacteria will begin to grow anyway?

[snapback]905968[/snapback]​

Actually nitrate is he end result of the nitrogen cycle so it won't do anything to help cycle a tank. The starting ingredient in the cycling process is ammonia. You either add pure ammonia (fishless cycle ONLY) or the fish produce ammonia through waste. If you simply fill a tank with water, it won't cycle. Even adding a bacteria starter (I have had no luck with them at all) won't help without the presence of ammonia.

You said you did a fishless cycle. Did you add ammonia at the beginning to start the process or did you just fill the tank and wait? Since you said the nitrites were off the scale, I would imagine there had to be ammonia present at some point to produce nitrite but the nitrate at the end of a successful fishless cycle is generally off the scale too, over 100 ppm so I'm a little concerned that you only have 20 ppm and half of that came from your tap water.

[snapback]905975[/snapback]​

I couldn't find anywhere selling pure Ammonia, so had to settle with following my LFS advice and used 'Cycle' as directed for setting up a new tank. After 2 weeks using Cycle as directed, I bought a testing kit. My Ammonia=0, NitrIte =0.5, didn't test NitrAte (was unhappy that my NitrIte was too high to get any fish). So I waited another week, still using 'Cycle' and tested again at the end of week3. This time Ammonia=0, NitrIte=0.3, NitrAte=20. I did a 50% water change. Two days later I tested again and got Ammonia=0, NitrIte=0.1, NitrAte=15. I now have 3 rather timid Balloon Mollies in the tank.

I was planning to test the water this weekend and do a 20% change anyway. What else should I do ?

 

[rdd1952]

If you haven't added any ammonia, your tank isn't cycled. Sorry. Basically, you have to add enough ammonia to raise the level to around 5 or 6 ppm to start with and then wait for it to drop back to near zero (usually about a week). At that point you should have nitrites in the 2 or 3 ppm range. YOu need to continue to add ammonia daily to raise the level back to around 2 ppm and wait on the nitrite to drop (usually about twice as long as it too the ammonia). Once nitrite drops back to zero, you do a big water change to remove the nitrates which will probably be over 100 ppm and then you are ready for all your fish. If you can't find pure ammonia, you can use fish food as it will decay/rot and produce ammonia too. It's just a little slower and messier.

Sorry your LFS steered you wrong. The Cycle only works (if it works at all) with the presence of ammonia. It supposedly contains bacteria that speed the growth of new bacteria. Just adding it to the water with ammonia for the bacteria to consume doesn't help. The bacteria that are in the bottle will die off from lack of food.

 

[jimbooo]

i seem to be a bit slow on this thread, yep again totally true. your adding bacteria in "cycle" and they have nothing to eat hence dying off and not continuing to cycle the tank.

 

[Notsofab]

If you haven't added any ammonia, your tank isn't cycled. Sorry. Basically, you have to add enough ammonia to raise the level to around 5 or 6 ppm to start with and then wait for it to drop back to near zero (usually about a week). At that point you should have nitrites in the 2 or 3 ppm range. YOu need to continue to add ammonia daily to raise the level back to around 2 ppm and wait on the nitrite to drop (usually about twice as long as it too the ammonia). Once nitrite drops back to zero, you do a big water change to remove the nitrates which will probably be over 100 ppm and then you are ready for all your fish. If you can't find pure ammonia, you can use fish food as it will decay/rot and produce ammonia too. It's just a little slower and messier.

Sorry your LFS steered you wrong. The Cycle only works (if it works at all) with the presence of ammonia. It supposedly contains bacteria that speed the growth of new bacteria. Just adding it to the water with ammonia for the bacteria to consume doesn't help. The bacteria that are in the bottle will die off from lack of food.

[snapback]906002[/snapback]​

OK I hear what you are saying but where did the NitrItes come from then and why did I have a raise in NitrAtes if Cycle does nothing without Ammonia.

Again, I understand what I should have done (but couldn't get any Ammonia) - but what can I do now?

 

[rdd1952]

I'm not sure where the nitrites came from but at only .5 ppm it could have been anything. You could have had some material that decayed in the tank in that time and created a small amount of ammonia and hence some nitrite. I would suggest getting some ammonia or fish flakes and starting the cycling process over. Here is a pinned topic with places to get ammonia in the US and UK. Once again, I'm sorry your LFS steered you wrong.

 

[Notsofab]

I'm not sure where the nitrites came from but at only .5 ppm it could have been anything. You could have had some material that decayed in the tank in that time and created a small amount of ammonia and hence some nitrite. I would suggest getting some ammonia or fish flakes and starting the cycling process over. Here is a pinned topic with places to get ammonia in the US and UK. Once again, I'm sorry your LFS steered you wrong.

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Thanks I appreciate the help. But what about my 3 poor Mollies. I can't sacrifice them and I don't have another tank?

 

[yvez9]

I'm a bit curious as someone here mentionned once they cycled with "cycle" and they noticed cycle was actually adding ammonia tot he tank.

although it is not in big qties, it still does add it, hence why he would be getting nitrite readings and nitrates higher than his tap...

How often do you add cycle?

 

[Notsofab]

I'm a bit curious as someone here mentionned once they cycled with "cycle" and they noticed cycle was actually adding ammonia tot he tank.

although it is not in big qties, it still does add it, hence why he would be getting nitrite readings and nitrates higher than his tap...

How often do you add cycle?

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Off the top of my head (I'm at work and don't have the bottle to hand) it says to add 10ml per 30 litres of tank water for the first to weeks, so 20ml in my 59 litre tank on day 1 then again on day 8, then added a maintenance dose of 10ml each week.

I still find it hard to believe that the large, reputable Aqauriums that I have been using who sold me my tank are telling people that all they need is 'Cycle' and Stress Coat to run a successful tank. I know that their chemicals cost money, but I am quiet willing to go down that route if I know for sure that my fish are not being harmed.

If it will help, I will add 10ml of Cycle to 15 litres of water - leave it 7 days and then take some water tests?

 

[rdd1952]

Thanks I appreciate the help. But what about my 3 poor Mollies. I can't sacrifice them and I don't have another tank?

[snapback]906020[/snapback]​

Sorry, I missed where you said you had the 3 mollies. Your initial post mentioned a fishless cycle so that is what I was basing things on. That definitely changes things. The mollies would have produced ammonia and hence begun the cycling process. In that case, you definitely don't want to add any more ammonia. Just check the water on a daily basis. You are probably indeed cycled for the 3 fish you have. Adding morefish will create a mini cycle and start the process over again. A tank (or as modernhamlet correctly says, a FILTER) is only cycled for the current fish it holds. Adding more creates more waste and means that more bacteria must form.

Once you go a full week with ammonia and nitrite at 0, then you should be able to add more fish (depending on the tank size). What size tank do you have? Once you add more fish, test the water daily and do small 15 to 20 percent water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrite under .5 ppm. Don't add more than 2 or 3 fish at a time. Once the readings on ammonia and nitrite stay at 0 for a week, add a few more until you are fully stocked.

Sorry for all the confusion.