Wanting To Build A Sump Tank For Educational Purposes, And Having A Fe

[bb1991]

My post header got cut, so what i typed was "...., And Having a Few Questions"
 
So i read about sump tanks some time ago when i first started really getting into this hobby. I'm not really into saltwater aquariums, and i know a sump tank isn't necessary for a fresh water planted with small fish such as tetras. But ever since i saw that you tube video a few years ago i'm still determined to try and build one from scratch just for the experience. Right now i have a 200-ish litre tank (close to 60 gal) and i'm not in a hurry to put anything into it until i've successfully made a sump tank. So i've researched a bit over the past few days and i have personal questions and indecisions that i need help with. (I warn you i don't know the terminology of anything, so bare with me)
 
   Firstly, i would like to get just one pump that returns the water back into the display tank, therefore i'll need to use gravity (i'm guessing) to bring the water down. Secondly, i don't want the overflow box to be inside the tank, so is it possible to make a hanging box outside of it? Lastly, the tank is in my bedroom, so i would like to make it as quite as possible.
   I have a few more questions regarding the physics of the flow rate and stuff. 1.) If my tank is 35' of the ground, and the sump tank will be placed about 5' off the ground, what pump size or gph should i be looking for that would make the flow rate in the sump and out to the display tank perfect? 2.) What's the minimum sump tank size possible for my display tank?
 
On a side note, can somebody explain to me in stupid people terms how an overflow box works technically, not what it does but how it works. I'm not in a rush to do anything, so you can take your time with this, please don't be hasty answering like its your duty to do so. And any suggestions and replies you might think isn't helpful, will always be to me. Even replying with one word that means some type of overflowbox or sump tank setup i will go search it myself so please, talk to me. i don't wanna be alone on this project! (Otherwise there's a high risk of me flooding my room lol)
 
By the way, i looked at many websites about setting up sump tanks, i found the diagram in the website most similar to what i had in mind. http/www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html

 

[Chad]

The site you went to is the best source of sump information out there so you have done well to find it.
 
An overflow box simply works on a siphon. Just like when you create a siphon to do a water change the overflow creates one. Since the return pump is always putting water back into the tank at the same rate it is leaving the tank the siphon continues on.
 
My current tank is drilled so it works as an actual drain and not a siphon but for undrilled tanks, which most FW tanks are, you can buy an overflow box. I used the PF-300 from eshopps for my 50 gallon tank and it worked like a charm.
 
Even for a FW tank there are benefits to having a sump in terms of nutrient export. You can add a refugium to it and use that as a grow out for fry. Lots of potential there. Another example would be to grow a few plants in your display and a ton of quickly growing plants in the refugium. These would uptake nutrients created by fish waste and detritus which would be removed from the system when you harvest the plants. Etc.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Actually, the overflow removes the water at the same rate as the pump returns it. It works on gravity. This way all you must do is get a pump which has the needed flow rate at the head level you will be using. The return pump should never pump the return water back faster than the overflow can remove it
 
There is no way to have a single box for an overflow. The alternative to the overflow box is to drill the tank. It still works on the same principle as the overflow box but the plumbing is more minimal.
 
Sumps work fine for fw tanks. I am about to built one. My design is a bit different that the traditional wet dry however. Sunos ork on fw tanks for many of the same reasons as they do on sw.
 
1. Gives one more total gallons.
2. Gives one a much larger filter which holds ton more media than canisters or hang ons etc.
3. Lets one move equipment out of the tank and into the sump.
4. Lets you have a veggie filter if you want one.
5. Makes it easier to dose ferts or meds etc. - no moving lights or opening hoods to put things into the tank.
 
One suggestion- be sure to insert ball valves in both the intake and return lines so you can shut the hoses down if you need to disconnect things to work on them. Make sure these do not restrict flow rates when in the open position.

 

[bb1991]

It's nice to know that i'm not completely insane for trying to use a sump for a FW tank, and thanks for replying tcamos
But i would like to try make my own overflow box if it isn't too much of a hassle (like using math and physics at the phd level), do you have any tips on a DIY overflow box?
BTW, i researched a bit more and found out that the flow rate should be about four to five times the size of the tank (in gallons), so i should find a pump that produces around 240 gph. Does anybody have any ideas if this method is still good for a FW tank? Since i found this on a reef tank website.


Ok TwoTankAmin, your suggestion has been read and understood. I was wondering about this but forgot to ask. So in the beginning i was pondering on what size PVC to use, but with the implementation of ball valves i guess i'll get a large enough size and adjust the inflow into the tank using the valve. And for restricting the pump, i read about this somewhere to implement a ball valve for the return pipe and install another pipe to the valve that returns the water back to the sump. This way it lessens the resistance from the ball valve and doesn't strain the pump. Thanks again TwoTankAmin

 

[Chad]

Here's an example of a hang on overlow and how to get the siphon started.
 

 

[bb1991]

Double-Rainbowed Awesomeness tcamos, i have a feeling i'll be using this post as my DIY Sumps for Dummies manual. Oh, another question, i keep reading about U-tubes and stuff, and it got me wondering whether the U in the tube is significant or not. Can it be a few PVC's glued together to form half a rectangle instead? Cuz if it has to be a U in the tube i think i'll try using a thick garden hose or somethin'. Can't find that U-tube anywhere around here.

 

[Chad]

It's easier to maintain the siphon in a uniform U as joints and bends can create air bubbles which collect and once large enough will break the siphon. Some people rig an aqua lifter pump to keep the siphon going though.

 

[bb1991]

I have a few questions about the water flow in the tank thats been botherin' for a while now. I think i'll be going with a spray bar to distribute the water flow to a wider area and lessen the disturbance on plants. Also, i was hoping to set the direction to spray from the left to the right of the tank. My question is, since i want the circulation to also reach the bottom, is it better to put the overflow bOx behind the spray bar? Or just keep it at the other end of the spray. I'm just scared that the sumped water goes straght into the overflow box without any circulation. (BTW, i'll be setting the spray bar at an angle and it'll be aove the water because i like the ripples it causes lol )

 

[Chad]

The overflow creates a great deal of circulation as it pulls water into it and the return creates quite a bit as well. In my 50 gallon I had the return on the opposite end from the overflow so it would pull from one end and push from the other. This created a good flow in the tank. Depending on the GPH of the drain and return you could end up with a few hundred GPH which means you are turning over the entire volume of a 50 gallon tank 6 times every hour for just an overflow like the PF-300. That's a lot of flow.

 

[bb1991]

Ok i think i understand now, i honestly totally forgot about the circulation caused by the overflow box. So like 1+1=2, what my mind is telling me is that even though the overflow box takes only the water from the surface the deeper water will eventually replace that surface water which ultimately all the water gets, for lack of a better word, sucked into the sump. I guess i won't aim the spray bar right at the overflow box but angled a little towards the bottom just to help push the deeper water up

 

[Chad]

You can also angle the return down so it's pushing the return water deeper into the tank. My tank is larger so it has two returns and each return is split into two nozzels. Like shown below. You can aim one up and one down for excellent circulation.
 

 

[bb1991]

Wow, that's pretty cool, but i think i'll stick with the spray bars and maybe adopt your idea by making two that sprays toward the upper area and another aimed lower since i trust you on the getting excellent circulation. The reason for being stubborn about the spray bars is because i really want to create slight ripples  on the surface. I just bought a small LED overhead light that changed colors to my liking, and i turn it on during the night sometimes creating a full-moon sort-of effect. The ripples cause the light to dance a bit. Really pretty

 

[Chad]

Keep in mind that spray bars coming from your return line are either going to massively reduce your flow or be under so much pressure they pop a leak or the spray is very hard.

 

[bb1991]

Alright, i'll keep that in mind about the pressure exerted on the spray bars. But for the flow rate i think spray bars work best for a FW tank, especially for tiny tetras. Don't want to stress them out too much with a strong flow. Just strong enough for a good exercise if they wanted some, like an underwater treadmill i guess . But I'll carefully position it away from the weaker plants and where i intend for those tetras to sleep. Thanks tcamos for so much, and yet asks for nothing in return. Can see now why you're the Admin. You Da Man!

 

[Chad]

Then you would just use a smaller return pump, something like a maxi-jet 1200 at 3 feet of headloss...if you use a siphon overflow you can't go too slow but if you use a gravity feed, which is not going to work on your tank then you can go really slow.