Very Sick Neon Tetra - Help Fast Please!

[Katty]

Well green neon tetra actually. First off, ammonia and nitrite are 0, nitrate is <20

I've been doing tons and tons of moving fish between my tanks lately, but this batch of neons has been with me for the last 6 months. The latest introduced fish have been a pair of blue rams which unsurprisingly died, one from stress and columnaris, then the other from seemingly nothing. All of the other fish with them have been in that tank for a couple years and healthy. Just saying this incase it rings any bells with anyone.

This night I was moving some fish out of quarantine into the tank the neons were in, and afterwards I noticed one of the neons wasn't quite right. The fish in question maybe a week or two ago showed four white spots, two on each side of the head a little bit behind the gills, right on top of each other like this :, and about that size and shape too. They looked a little raised. I was thinking perhaps it could be ich or something, and I would wait until it progressed a little bit more before treating.

Then, a few days ago the four spots disappeared. The area where the spots used to be no longer had the blue stripe running through it, it was just the same grey/black color as the rest of the body.

Now, today there is one white spot on the left side, and on the right side there are no spots, but the flesh looks black, necrotic even. Viewed from above the fish's spine is bowed to one side. It also has trouble swimming and it's rear end seems to sink and it has to waggle itself back up to swim.

It still schools, is active, and eats though. All other neons show no symptoms of what this fish has... (knock on wood) Two neons though do have a very small white blob on their adipose fins, they've had that since I have got them 6 months ago, I thought it was ich and treated as such for maybe 3 months when I first got them and the spots are still there, same as ever, so I don't think it was ich anyways.

I feel I really need to euthanize this fish because I can't imagine it getting any better at all and it's probably a hazard to all other fish in there. But we don't have any clove oil so I will have to wait until tomorrow to see if I can get some. It might even be dead by then though, who knows. Right now I am going to find a big bag or tupperware or something to put him in and float in the tank, I don't feel well letting him swim among the other fish.

So, what is it? Neon tetra disease? Should I treat the tank now? Or expect a fish apocalypse?

 

[Katty]

Update: I managed to catch him and put him in a ziplock bag floating in the tank. I'm tried to think of a better way to isolate him for the night but this will have to do until tomorrow, when I can get clove oil.

 

[Assaye]

Could be NTD. That can cause the spine to go and them to lose colour like that, although it is usually along the red stripe that and spine that they are most affected. The little white lumps could be ich or could be cysts associated with NTD if it is that. I've had a few neons with similar symptoms and I'm fairly sure I have NTD hiding in my neon tank.

Could also be fish TB? Someone else will confirm. Both are pretty nasty, relatively untreatable (especially in NTDs case) and infectious.

All in all, I agree with the clove oil plan. Poor little thing.

 

[Katty]

I went to go change out the water in his bag and added a few pieces of aquarium salt (more of a good luck charm than anything else, I don't really expect it to do anything). I noticed though that the one white dot is as far as I can tell gone, and that his spine does not look curved now. Not sure what that means. He still has the black marks though. He tries very hard to join the rest of the neons through the bag.

I really hope its not NTD or TB... In the case a tank is infected with NTD or TB, is a major tear down and sterilization of everything required?

 

[Assaye]

I went to go change out the water in his bag and added a few pieces of aquarium salt (more of a good luck charm than anything else, I don't really expect it to do anything). I noticed though that the one white dot is as far as I can tell gone, and that his spine does not look curved now. Not sure what that means. He still has the black marks though. He tries very hard to join the rest of the neons through the bag.

I really hope its not NTD or TB... In the case a tank is infected with NTD or TB, is a major tear down and sterilization of everything required?

With NTD I would be tempted to leave it as is and just seperate any obviously infected fish while also not replacing fish that die. NTD you can't cure and while there are still living fish that potentialy have it, there is no point doing a tear down. Not sure what the best course of action with TB would be.

After all the neons have died off (which may take a while) or been moved to a new tank, then you could tear down.

 

[WILDER]

How big are the white spots. Are they bigger than a grain of salt.
Any redness to the spots.

Signs of ntd are -

Bleached out red stripe area, or a milky substance on red stripe area.
Blue area will sometimes turn a golden yellow colour.
Black linning around the red stripe area.
Lumps that go to a point.
Fish will leave and shoal and act restless.
Weighloss, sometimes the fish will look skinny, with a sunken in belly.
Bent spine sometimes.
Later stages dropsy, and popeye.
Swimming in an odd manor.

 

[Katty]

Yes, the white spots were a little bigger than a grain of salt. When they were there, they were not red, they were very white surrounded by black flesh.

Not sure if it's ntd at this point, as the only symptom that fits that so far is the strange swimming and the spine looked slightly curved.

 

[Katty]

I got the clove oil and I'm in the process of putting the poor thing to sleep right now.

I noticed that on one side on one of the black patches there is actually a small hole with white on the bottom. Maybe this used to be the white dot? I don't know.

 

[Katty]

I just finished euthanizing the fish with clove oil and alcohol. After it died I took some pictures. The scary thing is, the hole that I mentioned earlier on one side was pretty deep. I took the dead fish out of the water and looked at it up close. The hole went through the scales and flesh and looked pretty deep, maybe like it was tunneled or it intersected with open areas inside of the fish's body, like chambers. The flesh inside the hole was a white/creamy color, sort of like cooked cod.

I took a bunch of pictures, but the fish was so small it was hard to take a not blurry photo
Before death

After death (I edited the brightness and constrast on these so you can see the details better:
Left side of neon with scary hole
Left side again
Right side

 

[WILDER]

That's bad.
Black on fish can be fish tb, ntd, bad water quality, cancer.

It's not looking good i'm afraid.

Signs of fish tb can be -
Bent spine.
Fish will look skinny or bloated.
Blackness.
Blackness of the iris.
Sores that ulcerate into a hole.

It's hard to say which desease it is as it pointing towards a number of things.

Let us all know how you get on if you don't mind.

R.I.P.

If it is ntd there nothing to be done apart from destroying the fish that are showing the symtoms.

 

[Katty]

So there's nothing preventative I can do for this, other than keeping a close watch on everyone?

 

[WILDER]

There nothing to be done for ntd. There no cure.
Just keep an eye on symtoms, if any changes get back to the board.

 

[Katty]

Yikes. I'll be keeping a close eye on anyone in that tank and I'll be sure to be back if anything else happens.

If this looks familiar to anyone else, feel free to comment still.

 

[WILDER]

Any neons showing signs of ntd I would end there misery. You can't get them better and there putting all the fish at risk.

 

[Twinklecaz]

Can I butt in and ask something. Is it right that if you have NTD in your tank then it's always there? So if you had a shoal of neons in your tank and they all died from it then it would never be safe to get any more (without sterilising the whole thing including the filter)?

and can all the other fish in the tank get/carry it? So basically once it's in the tank the only thing you can do is wait for everything to die, strip down and start again