Tpn+

[jonnyf84]

Hi. so my tank is now almost fully planted, 6 hours light (t5 at about 2.5wpg), co2 at just under 3 bps - turned on 2 hours before lights on and turned off 1 hour before lights off. Also adding easycarbo to act as a algaecide more than for it true purpose.
Most the plants were in the tank for a week before the co2 kit arrived, there were no fish at this point so i was dosing ammonia and easycarbo only, after that first week i installed the co2 unit and over the course of the next week took it up to around 3bps, 2 weeks after the initial planting i started dosing TPN+.
Now i think that the first week took its toll on the plants, the Staurogyne sp. is dying and has a lot of brown algae on it and most the leaves of the Echinodorus 'Aquartica' and the Echinodorus bleheri are rippled and slightly yellow - the last two haven't got any worse since adding co2 and tpn+, maybe even slightly better but the Staurogyne sp. is just about on its last legs - everything else is now doing quite well.
I'm slightly dissapointed that all the plants aren't the picture of health and i can't figure out why not - does tpn+ not provide a complete diet for the plants?

 

[Truck]

yes it does, but you may want to dose more, or buy some dry powders and dose a certain nutrients when your plants are lacking

 

[jonnyf84]

[mmm i don't think i'm experienced enough with planted tanks yet to know exactly which nutrient a specific plant is lacking, if i had to guess i would say it looks like a calcium defficiency due to slightly twisted leaves and a yellowish tinge to them (strange as i thnk tpn+ contains calcium) but i don't want to go out and buy a specific nutrient only for it not to work.

I'm pretty sure i am dosing plenty of tpn+, i get most my plants from green machine who are second to none for aquactic plants, takashi amano has chosen them as his UK distributer for his ADA products and has sent his leading men to do work shops in there store. I have had many conversations with there staff and picked there brains on most aspects of planted aquariums so i follow all there recommendations, i slowly increased the amount of tpn+ to the desired 2ml per day and i add 5ml of easycarbo daily, this is much more than is recommended on the bottles but i trust the advice given too me.

 

[Underwurlde]

yeah, It does have the complete list of nutrients... But I'd argue that there's perhaps not enough of the basic NPK for an EI setup.

Higher lighting drives high CO2 take up (got) that then drives Nutrient take up for the explosive growth in EI conditions. Your plants are telling you that basically yes, they're nutrient deficient, so give them some more. I get the raw stuff on-line from Garden Direct if memory serves.

Also, will the easy carbo effect those plants in much the same way that Flourish Excel seems to have on plants such as Vallis? I dunno, can't see the point in such products myself - you don't need it really. If you are using it as some sort of algicide, but hold on, you've an EI tank.... plenty of fast growers in there, bosh algae should be suppressed (lack of nutrients aside).

Andy

 

[jonnyf84]

i'll up the dosage of the tpn+ slightly and see if it helps, the algae stemmed from that first week without fish or co2, i was dosing ammonia so algae spread like wild fire, i got the easycarbo to fill the temperary void of co2 but seen as i have most of the bottle left over and that i was recommended to use it daily, on top of co2, then i may as well at least finish the bottle - it doesn't have negative effects on vallis like excel does.

I cant figure out whats going on with the Staurogyne sp. it doesn't have the same defficiencies as the other plants, the roots are browning, the leaves are dying off and have black edges and they have quite a bit of brown algae on them which the others don't.

 

[Underwurlde]

Black / brown leaves, plants die: Indication of Excess phosphates.

Perhaps you are dumping too much in! Complicated business keeping plants, no?

I use raw NPK, better, cheaper...

KNO3, KH2PO4, order here:
http/www.gardendirect.co.uk/potassium-nitrate-p-210
http/www.gardendirect.co.uk/potassium-phosphate-p-213

Not exactly expensive and should last a year!

Andy

 

[RadaR]

i'll up the dosage of the tpn+ slightly and see if it helps, the algae stemmed from that first week without fish or co2, i was dosing ammonia so algae spread like wild fire, i got the easycarbo to fill the temperary void of co2 but seen as i have most of the bottle left over and that i was recommended to use it daily, on top of co2, then i may as well at least finish the bottle - it doesn't have negative effects on vallis like excel does.

I cant figure out whats going on with the Staurogyne sp. it doesn't have the same defficiencies as the other plants, the roots are browning, the leaves are dying off and have black edges and they have quite a bit of brown algae on them which the others don't.

Bet it's CO2. Lack of distribution to the staurogyne. Could be that the liquid carbon isn't enough and CO2 gas injection would be better for it.

This is also interesting

it doesn't have negative effects on vallis like excel does.

Because it's the same stuff supposedly.

 

[Truck]

it is but easy carbo is more concentrated i believe

 

[hogan53]

Hi
6 hours of light is definitely not enough for a fully planted aquarium.
lights on 5am
lights off 10am
lights on2pm
lights off 4pm
lights on 6pm
lights off 10 to 11pm.


What about trace elements?
Is this included in Easycarbo as i have never used it.
hoggie

 

[Truck]

TPN+ contains trace elements

 

[hogan53]

Aaronnorth
Could be the man to fix this problem.
If you don't have enough penetrating lighting and sufficient lighting long enough to utilises the fertilizers/trace elements,plants will not thrive.
hoggie

 

[Underwurlde]

^Why such a convoluted lighting schedule? Just interested 'tis all.

Depends on what you mean by thrive. You don't need high lighting for plants to thrive. In fact I believe it is easier to keep plants at the lower end of the lighting scale, no need therefore for all this constant daily fert dosing and infinite complexities associated with CO2 injection....

The fact that the CO2 appears to me to be unstable is in my mind is the root of the algae problems perhaps. Plant deficiencies cause by fert dosing problems another (perhaps unrelated) problem too.

Tank needs to settle, to get to a balance. In the meantime, I'd be tempted to reset the environment...reduce the growth stimualtors, beginning of corse with light, & drop back the CO2 & dosing riegeme. Then GRADUALLY increase the lighting... CO2 & ferts to match, to reach that EI stable tank....

Andy

 

[jonnyf84]

Bet it's CO2. Lack of distribution to the staurogyne. Could be that the liquid carbon isn't enough and CO2 gas injection would be better for it.

Because it's the same stuff supposedly.

its not lack of distribution, i use co2 gas injection, i use a power head above the diffuser to distribute the co2 evenly so this is not the problem.

Excel and Easycarbo are not the same thing, there are many reports (unproven but massively coincidental if untrue) that excel damages most vallisneria sp and also otto's.

This isn't about the easycarbo, i am simply using the bottle up to act as a algaecide, when its gone i wont be getting anymore.

I think one of you touched on the problem, the tank isn't settled, the plants need to get used to the regime and once they do i think everything will be ok.

I'm not sure what the debate with the lighting is? Why would you ever have lights on for more than 9 hours max, 6-8 hours is ideal, 9 hours max for a incredibly densley planted tank. This is info i have got from numerous sources - from people who's profession is aquascaping and everything that is related with it.

The fact that the CO2 appears to me to be unstable is in my mind is the root of the algae problems perhaps

Where did you get the idea that the co2 is unstable? For the first week i didn't use pressurized co2 because it hadn't arrived yet, this is why i got the easycarbo to tide me by until it had arrived, it has now been 3 weeks with the pressurized system with no fluctuations - the plants don't seem to be deteriorating anymore, the hemianthus is spreading runners all over the place, as is the vallisneria nana, i've been able to propogate most the other plants already, its really just the steorogyne sp. that i'm worried about, its a reasonably new plant to the hobby - maybe i've planted it wrong or something.
I'll give the tank another week to see how things go and report back - hopefully its just a settling in period for the plants.

 

[Underwurlde]

Where did you get the idea that the co2 is unstable? For the first week i didn't use pressurized co2 because it hadn't arrived yet, this is why i got the easycarbo to tide me by until it had arrived, it has now been 3 weeks with the pressurized system with no fluctuations

Cool, scratch that thought then... Must've misread something there.

OK, so if everything is hunky dorey (apart from algae, & I do reckon that any tank needs a settling in period) then...

a) Plant that is suffering just didn't like being up-rooted & moved.
b) Some sort of Allelopathic 'attack' is occuring...?

Just more thoughts....

Andy

 

[jonnyf84]

Where did you get the idea that the co2 is unstable? For the first week i didn't use pressurized co2 because it hadn't arrived yet, this is why i got the easycarbo to tide me by until it had arrived, it has now been 3 weeks with the pressurized system with no fluctuations

Cool, scratch that thought then... Must've misread something there.

OK, so if everything is hunky dorey (apart from algae, & I do reckon that any tank needs a settling in period) then...

a) Plant that is suffering just didn't like being up-rooted & moved.
b) Some sort of Allelopathic 'attack' is occuring...?

Just more thoughts....

Andy

mmm i thinking more like 'A', other wise it wouldn't just be the Steurogyne sp. that would be effected. it was in the post for 3 days - usually this is fine but maybe this plant just doesn't travel well - i have had similar problems with blyxa sp. before.