To Add Or Not?

ellena

Fish Gatherer
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I have a 60l stocking in sig. I started out with 4 frogs and I'd like to replace some, up to 3 perhaps? I feed them by hand, so too many would be a bit of a pain.
I'm not really interested in upping the hengelis, they're so boring! Do most little shoals fish just mooch, doing very little? They stay in the same part of the tank, hanging. The gouramis peck the wood and generally explore more, much nicer to watch.
I always wanted cherry shrimp, would they co exist with the amano? I have another tank they could go in, but catching them would be a real nightmare!
Would you add anything else, if so what? Thanks for ideas :)
 
I went to wharf today, they had blond frogs, so had a couple of those. Also got 5 male blue endless. They're pretty stunning little things and I think a bit of blue will liven the tank up nicely. They also had Daisy's rice fish which are stunning, the endless own as they're that bit smaller and I'm not sure how many fish I can have.
Just got them acclimating in the q tank, roll on 4 weeks so I can add to the main tank....
 
I don't think I saw your initial May 8 post or I likely would have commented then.  I think you are overstocking this tank.
 
A 60 litre is 15 gallons.  The trio of Honey Gourami and the five Rasbora will fill it, with respect to fish.  Shrimp are OK.  I know next to nothing of the frogs so can't comment but they may be pushing things over.
 
Do most little shoals fish just mooch, doing very little? They stay in the same part of the tank, hanging.
 
 
In the case of this species of rasbora, yes.  Shoaling fish need a group, for several reasons I will not get into.  Some species just "hang out" together, others swim around together, others separate much of the time.
 
The gouramis peck the wood and generally explore more
 
 
This is gourami behaviour.  All species are sedate, crusing around, picking off tidbits of food from plant leaves, branches, etc.
 
The rasbora are actually ideal tankmates for gourami because of their respective behaviours.  Active fish would not be a good match, and especially in a small tank, even if there was room water-wise.
 
Byron.
 
Well hey, thanks for the reply now anyhow :/ I was starting to wonder if my posts were showing up! Fish behaviour is something I'll have to research in future, though I've not seen much info on it.
I know the length of fish to volume of water rules aren't hard and fast, but I don't seem over by either of them? And the external filter is about 6l I think.
Not arguing, honest, just trying to understand how to make decisions about stocking. As asking on here can't always be relied on....
 
No problem asking questions, or for clarification.
 
Those "rules" about stocking fish are flawed at best, and misleading at worst.  They basically consider fish mass ratio to water, which is certainly important, but it is only part--and a very small part--of the complex issue of stocking a community aquarium.  [Not sure of your level of knowledge/experience, so...community means we have more than one fish species.]  The physical space, other fish species, numbers within the species, the environment (water parameters, decor, substrate, plants), the activity level of each species, and individual fish behaviours all factor in to how many fish a given tan can safely accommodate.
 
The filter factors in, but not as much as one might expect, because again we are dealing primarily with the fish themselves.  As a rough example, 20 zebra danio in a 20 gallon aquarium would be overstocked; but 25 cardinal tetra in the same aquarium would not be [though the decor factors in to this and may make a difference].  And only 8 cardinal tetra with 10 danio would not work at all.  Given that these fish are roughly the same when it comes to size/mass in relation to the volume of water, you can appreciate there are other factors at play.  I will elaborate if asked.
 
Live plants factor in, and I don't know if you have this tank planted or not.  But a 15g/60 litre tank is a pretty small space.  Among my seven tanks now, I have a 20g which is probably the same footprint (the basic or high 20g is 24 inches long, same as the basic 15g here), and on a permanent basis I would not add more beyond a trio of Honey Gourami and a group of five Harlequin Rasbora, though I might up the rasbora by a couple, but that would be it.
 
Byron.
 
Thank you :)
So, I'm seeing there are different definitions of overstocked-
Too much fish mass for the filter to handle leading to poor water parameters
Tank dimensions unsuitable for size/activity level of species
Incompatible species housed together
Too many different species in one tank (the issue with my stocking?)
I think those last 2 might better be called mis stocked.

In your example of cardinals v danios, I assume this is because of the swimming room danios need. You can up the numbers within a species because they don't need their own territory? Do all fish have a territory of some kind, or need their own space within a tank?
Experience wise, I had a small tank about 4 years ago with endlers and galaxy rasboras, but lost them all. I've kept bettas back then and since, and this 60l is my first community. It's been up and running just over 6 months now and going quite well. Some losses and a misdiagnosis on my part of ich, but it's all learning eh?
It is planted, quite heavily I think. In the pic you can see the hengelis, doing about as much as they do, and the gouramis are off exploring in amongst the plants :)
 

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That is a very nice aquascape, ellena, I like that.  And now that I've seen it, I can go a little further.  I would definitely increase the Trigonostigma hengeli to 9-10, for their betterment.  This species will always be better with a few more; I like this species best of the three similar Trigonostigma rasbora, and I've had all three over the years.  I know you find them uninteresting, but adding a few more might help to increase their activity, though as I said previously this is not an active swimming species.  But they will be "happier" with more pals, and that counts for something.  Mine are going through spawning motions but they still remain in a close group centre-tank except when feeding.
 
In your example of cardinals v danios, I assume this is because of the swimming room danios need.
 
 
Yes, that was my intention.  But it goes farther.  When fish are denied something they are inherently programmed to expect, they will be more likely to be under stress and this impacts negatively on the tank's biology more than if the environment was more suited to the needs of the fish.  Danios are swimming fish, so they should have space, and they will be healthier.  Cardinals on the other hand are not active swimmers, behaving more like your rasbora, so one can have more of them because such fish tend to occur in much larger groups.  So providing more in this instance actually has less effect on the biololgical system than too few.  It's not an enormous difference by any means, but everything does add up.
 
You can up the numbers within a species because they don't need their own territory? Do all fish have a territory of some kind, or need their own space within a tank?
 
 
Territory can be very significant with some fish more than others, so this may enter the equation too.  But with most (but certainly not all) of the characins and the "rasbora" cyprinids, numbers are primarily a safety issue for the fish; the more there are, the safer they feel.  They do have interactions though; I regularly see the males of many of my tetras and rasbora challenging/displaying/playing, whatever it may be and most likely all three, by two of them, sometimes three, sidling up, turning at an angle, fins fully erect, "shivering" side by side.  Pencilfish do this a lot, and my Black Ruby Barbs are forever sparring, two males with fins erect chasing each other in a circle very rapidly, and for several minutes, sometimes hours, on and off.  The more there are in the group, the more natural this becomes.
 
Territory does come into play with the Honey Gourami; male gourami are very territorial, depending upon species it can vary in the aggressiveness, but gourami and cichlids are very similar in this respect.  And some male gourami will drive females very hard, which is why one male with two females is often suggested; depends again upon species.  The females must have space to escape the attentions of the male, or they can be seriously weakened and even killed.  Honeys are not so bad in this, but males can become quite territorial when spawning.  And at 2 inches (5 cm, some sources say up to 7 cm) this is not really that small of a fish.  So this too affects my thinking on fish in a 15g.
 
So, I'm seeing there are different definitions of overstocked-
Too much fish mass for the filter to handle leading to poor water parameters
Tank dimensions unsuitable for size/activity level of species
Incompatible species housed together
Too many different species in one tank (the issue with my stocking?)
I think those last 2 might better be called mis stocked.
 
 
Yes on the factors; no in your case on the species.  Aside from the frogs of which I know next to nothing, the gourami and rasbora are perfect tankmates.  You could add other rasbora species (though I still would up the hengeli), and some of the quieter characins would work here too, if the space limitations were not an issue.
 
Fish release pheromones and allomones, and these cannot be removed with filtration (plants can handle some, but this is only 100% effective in ratios of very few fish to masses of plants in larger water volumes) but only water changes.  Pheromones are "read" by other fish in the species, and allomones are "read" by other species.  These are chemical signals that can have all sorts of meanings, from initiating spawning, to aggression, to locating food, etc.  And these are a major source of stress signals that can seriously impact other fish.  As a simple example of this, an aggressive fish is sending out this signal and the other fish are picking it up, which increases their level of stress.  Even if no physical interaction occurs, the effect can be just as damaging to the fish.  I frequently hear new aquarists saying that there are no problems with their Tiger Barbs and angelfish, but the fact is there almost certainly is serious trouble, because the barbs are sending out signals and the angelfish are picking them up and getting stressed.
 
Byron.
 
Byron said:
So, I'm seeing there are different definitions of overstocked-Too much fish mass for the filter to handle leading to poor water parametersTank dimensions unsuitable for size/activity level of speciesIncompatible species housed togetherToo many different species in one tank (the issue with my stocking?)I think those last 2 might better be called mis stocked.
 
Yes on the factors; no in your case on the species.  Aside from the frogs of which I know next to nothing, the gourami and rasbora are perfect tankmates.  You could add other rasbora species (though I still would up the hengeli), and some of the quieter characins would work here too, if the space limitations were not an issue.
Byron.
But it would apply with the endlers?
Thanks for the rest of the explanations. I did have 7 of the hengelis, but 2 mysterious deaths got me down to 5.
 
But it would apply with the endlers?
 
 
No.  Endlers are not good companions for gourami, nor rasbora for that matter.  Much too lively.  Plus very different water parameters, although we haven't looked at your water data.
 
Thanks for the rest of the explanations. I did have 7 of the hengelis, but 2 mysterious deaths got me down to 5.
 
 
You're most welcome.  Don't hesitate to ask further, I tried to summarize rather than more detail.
 
I would add more, before any new species are considered.
 
Byron.
 

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