The Shimmies!

[Meggie :)]

Hey everyone

One of my younger balloon mollies (one of the ones born in my tank a while back, she is about half the size if not less of a full grown adult)...she has the "shimmies" and seems to be flicking every now and then...not very often, though. I've only noticed her doing it two or three times in the past few days...I noticed this about 2 days ago but it could have been going on longer and i didn't think about it...thats probably the case...I did a huge water change...here are my stats...

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0 (because of the large water change)
PH: 7.6 ish...7.8? In that range-ish
Temp: about 78-79 farenheit
Tank size: 10 gallons, heavily planted, sand, wood (if that even matters)
Stocking: 5 pygmy cories, 2 half grown balloon mollies, 2 adult balloon mollies, 3 amano shrimp

New additions: balloon molly female about...mmm...a week ago? but she was a brand new shipment, never even was in the crappy fish tank of the store I went to, she looked very healthy, unclamped, and still does. I made sure that I got a healthy looking one! One of my amano shrimp died either early this morning or late last night. But I don't know as though this is significant because I know they are very fragile and don't live very long.

Anyway, I have just added some aquarium salt because I heard this can cause the shimmies with mollies...But what about the flicking? What else can I do! I don't notice any external parasite of any kind...yet anyway..

What can I do?! What is wrong with her! Please Help! She is one of my favorites and frankly I don't want something devistating to happen to my tank again!

Thanks, Meg

Edit: Also, my other baby ish balloon molly seems to be sort of clamped and hanging around the heater or at the bottom a lot and seems to be moving his/her gills sort of rapidly

 

[nmonks]

The "shimmies" is environmental. It almost always goes away when the aquarium is modified to provide better conditions for the Mollies. Hard, alkaline water is essential, plus zero nitrate and a fair amount of warmth (26-28 C for farmed Mollies, one reason why they aren't compatible with Corydoras, which mostly need cooler water). Brackish water is, to be honest, the easiest way to keep Mollies, and it's very rare to see a sick Molly in either brackish or marine conditions.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Meggie :)]

Could I move my cories to maybe one of my 5.5 gallon betta tanks? And could I be dealing with ich? Like the first stages of ich? Because of the clamping and flicking? Thank you for your reply! Is maintaining brackish water a pain? Because I really love my mollies! haha

Edit: Can all the same plants that survive in freshwater survive in brackish water too?

 

[nmonks]

Only very slight salinity* is needed for Mollies; SG 1.002 is ample. Any plant that's happy in hard, alkaline water should be fine at this very low salinity. For a list of possible plants, see my comments on this thread.

I would not keep Pygmy Corydoras in less than 8 Imperial gallons (10 US gallons).

Cheers, Neale

*Assuming you use marine aquarium salt mix at ~5 grammes/litre.

 

[Meggie :)]

Thank you so much! So I have to give all of my cories back?

 

[FishFanatic04]

hmm. I had mollies, platies, and corys together with no issues. I also did not keep them in salt and I know that it is not completely necessary to do so. I think it depends on what they were kept in when you got them.

I suggest popping a question to OldMan47 on your worries over Mollies, Meggie. I feel like I have read a post by him saying the mollies don't need salt, but I can't say for sure.

 

[FishFanatic04]

Nmonks sounds like he knows his stuff, I was just worried that you are sounding overly stressed and that your original issue with the flicking isn't being addressed. goodluck!

 

[nmonks]

I think it depends on what they were kept in when you got them.

No, that's a myth.

Here's the deal:

In the wild Mollies mostly live in freshwater. Usually not far from the sea, so very much the coastline of North America through to Brazil, but in freshwater nonetheless. They do live in brackish water in some parts of their range though, and occasionally get exposed to fully marine salinities, for example in mangroves.

Aquarium Mollies are not a true species. They are ALL hybrids of one sort or another. Like their ancestors, they can do just fine in freshwater. But generations of aquarists have noticed that Mollies are always easier to keep when a little salt is added. This doesn't mean you can't keep them in freshwater, but rather the probability of disease becomes less when salt is added.

The reasons for this are unclear. There are three possible explanations. The first is that some Mollies have more "brackish water Molly" genes in them than others. I used to believe this, but I'm very skeptical now. The second is that sodium chloride reduces the toxicity of nitrite and nitrate, both of which cause problems for Mollies. Contrast the fact Mollies are sensitive to water quality in freshwater tanks to the fact they were used to cycle marine aquaria where they could be virtually guaranteed to get through any nitrite spike you might have to deal with! Finally, there's the increased carbonate hardness provided by marine salt mix. This buffers the pH, preventing the inevitable pH drops you get between water changes. Again, Mollies seem to be acutely sensitive to low pH, perhaps more so than other livebearers such as Guppies or Platies.

The use of marine aquarium salt mix provides a two-fold benefit: reduces nitrite and nitrate toxicity, and then buffers the pH and reduces problems with osmoregulation. Plain aquarium salt only provides the first benefit, which is why I don't see any point to using it. If you're going to add salt at a meaningful concentration, you may as well use proper marine aquarium salt mix. There are plenty of compatible fish that tolerate SG 1.002, including such things as Australian rainbowfish, horseface loaches, brown hoplo catfish, common plecs and quite a few cichlids. Lots of plants thrive at this salinity too.

Cheers, Neale

 

[FishFanatic04]

I always appreciate an opportunity to learn. If you please, because Meggie's Molly is also flicking which can be a sign of illness like ich or velvet, couldn't the "Shimmies" be a symptom from that?

 

[nmonks]

For sure. In fact if a fish is flicking or flashing against solid objects, I'd call that a symptom of a gill irritation before anything else. Velvet and Whitespot both attack the gills before they're visible on the skin -- though neither can survive in brackish water above SG 1.002 at 25 C/77 F. Changes in pH, particularly acidification, can cause irritation to the gills, as can non-zero ammonia and nitrite levels.

Shimmies is distinctive: Fish "swim on the spot", with clamped pectoral ("arm") fins, often rocking from side to side. Shimmies can, and does, develop alongside other problems, and is more a symptom than a disease in itself; Shimmies is generally described as being a negative neurological reaction brought on by stress, poisoning or disease.

Cheers, Neale

If you please, because Meggie's Molly is also flicking which can be a sign of illness like ich or velvet, couldn't the "Shimmies" be a symptom from that?

 

[Meggie :)]

Thank you so much! As of this morning it doesn't look like she is shimmying anymore...I haven't noticed any flicking, however, I will keep an eye on it...and I will definately consider making my water brackish! I would do it immediately but I have to talk to my mom first...cause I need a ride to the store haha

Do you think it might be okay for me to move my cories over with the betta until I find them a new home? (They are extremely tiny by the way)

Would amano shrimp be able to handle the salt?

Also, I just set up a fry tank (balloon mollies of course, about 30 ish of them)...If I can get the salt, should I put it in there too?

Thank you for all your help! It has been extremely helpfull!
Meg

Edit: The plants I have are:
~Java moss
~Elodea
~Hornwort
~Some swords
~A crypt of some kind
~Java fern
~Anubias

Would those work in brackish? If not I could just add them to my betta tanks

 

[nmonks]

Amano shrimps are fine in slightly brackish water.

Pretty much all your plants will be fine at SG 1.002 at 25 C/77 F, though you will want to stick with standard Cryptocoryne wendtii, the common species of the trade. Some of the other crypts are much more delicate and sensitive. Similarly, it's the cheap-and-cheerful common Amazon sword (E. bleheri) that does okay in brackish; the more fussy species might not adapt so well.

Start off at a lower salinity first, SG 1.001, which is equivalent to about 2.5 grammes per 1 litre. Run the tank like that for a week, to give your plants time to adapt. Indeed, you may find your Mollies perk up so well that adding more salt will be unnecessary.

Molly fry are happy in the same water as adults, so no problems there.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Meggie :)]

Thank you! What do you suggest with the cories?

 

[nmonks]

Have stated above: I would not keep dwarf Corydoras species in less than 8 gallons. Might be okay in 5 gallons for a week or so, but hardly ideal for the long term. Bettas should't really be kept with other fish anyway.

Cheers, Neale

Thank you! What do you suggest with the cories?

 

[FishFanatic04]

Bettas can be kept with a huge variety of fish, including corys. Betta Compatibilty

There are Many success stories on this forum.