The Problems Of Rushing Into A New Tank.

[Minotaur]

We (my partner and I) set up a 29 gallon freshwater community tank last weekend. I did a little preliminary reading and found tht the tank should cycle for a while fishless. He is the kind of person that wants instant gratification and pushes. So after 24 hours, having added the water conditioners and run the filter, we added a few fish, against my better judgement. Fish have been around 400 million years, waiting another week won't hurt.

Well, so far so good. They made it. A few days later he added a few more fish, on the advice of the lfs. Now after 96 hours we're up to 10 small freshwater fish in a 29 gallon tank. They're all surviving but the water is taking on a milky cast.

Come the weekend (Saturday and yesterday), he's anxious to almost fully populate the tank up to its limit. I say this is a mistake. We've added too many fish too fast. So we have the water tested. The only problem is that the ammonia level is a little high, says the lfs. Everything else is actually perfect. They say we actually are not in trouble with this number of fish... currently 16: Bala and pleco (I know... rehome soon), tiger barb, several mollies varieties, several gouramis varieties, black skirt tetra, rainbow shark. They're all doing very well, actually... eating, scampering around, very active. We had one casualty... an angelfish we added yesterday died within hours. It seemed fine in the lfs tank. I did the drip-method to introduce our water to it instead of floating the bag, but even while it was in the bag transporting from the lfs it seemed to be petering out.

Back to the water... I bought an ammonia test kit and general test kit to do myself. The ammonia comes up at between 0.5 and 1.0 ppm. But all other measurements... e.g. chlorine=0, pH=~7 ("safe/moderate" range), etc. all perfect. (whew!). According to the test kit, as long as the pH is "safe", my ammonia reading is still "safe" (I know I should shoot for as low as possible). I've added ammonia remover but it hasn't seemed to help yet except maybe ket the ammonia from going higher. I've added bacteria helper conditioner. I also understand that ironically though the fish are creating ammonia they are also adding beneficial bacteria?

Btw, the water still has a milky cast. Is this to be expected given the circumstances? I guess this is what Aquariums For Dummies (and we are) calls New Tank Syndrome. Any and all insight is appreciated.

 

[catxx]

ANY reading of ammonia is not "safe", for a healthy tank it must be at 0.
do regular, DAILY water changes to combat this and ease the fishies pain (they get burnt by ammonia)

it can take between 2-4 weeks for the beneficial bacteria to develop and levels to even out.

the ammonia is likely to keep going up, then the nitrites will go up and ammonia will start to drop, then the nitrites will start to drop and the nitrates will go up.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yup, agreed with catxx, the milky water is likely to be becuase you are cycling the tank.

you need to hold your partner back, as by adding so many fish he's almost certainly going to do some damage to them and is quite likely to end up killing some of them.

do daily 20% water changes ensuring your water is dechlorinated and keep testing the stats and keep your fingers crossed. Until the amonia spike and nitrite spike have passed and your nitrates are STEADILY at an acceptable level then you shouldn't add any more fish. If I was you I'd honestly take some/all of the fish you have back to the shop.



good luck

 

[smmetz]

Absolutely do not add more fish to that tank. As it is now, you will probably have more casualties. The only thing that can stop it is if you do daily water changes of at least 1/4 of your water. Repeat this until your amonia stays at 0. This will probably take a couple weeks.

Do not stock a 29 gallon to 29 inches of fish, when you know they are all still growing. Stock your tank considering the adult sizes of the fish. For the pleco and bala, at least count them as the max size they should be in a 29 gallon tank. (which I would say is 6 or maybe 7 inches MAX)

When you add up your fish this way, your tank is already full I bet. Remember - the tanks at the pet stores are NOT a guide as to how crowded a tank should be.

 

[Minotaur]

Wow, thanks for the quick and concise responses. I had a feeling that the water changes were going to be necessary.

As far as more fish, that is out of the question. He knows now that the tank is at its limit, even though they are little. We did account for growth. I had a fit and gave the fire and brimstone speech about the angel being only the first casualty and that I don't want to hear it if there are more. This didn't have to happen.

Any way, as far as the water changes...

20% of a 29 gallon tank is just under 6 gallons. No problem with the mechanics of it (2 buckets and a siphon hose).

The big question is... Can I just add 6 gallons of tap water to the tank as is? Or do I add my conditioners in the recommended amounts to each bucketful? What about the temperature? Tap water is considerably cooler than the tank water. Is this a concern? Sorry to sound like such a newbie, but... well, I am. Unfortunately, I've looked for the answers to these questions in a few books, and I haven't seen them addressed!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

nope don't worry about the temp, can't remember the science but someone's explained it on here before, the tank temp shouldn't drop more than 1/2oC which isn't a problem. Add the dechlor whenever you like really, it works pretty instantly, sometimes i do it after taking the water out, sometimes i add it to the buckets of water going in, sometimes after the change. I guess the best way would be to add it to the buckets of new water and stir it all up, but personally i've never had any problems however I do it.

Glad you gave your partner a good talking to, sometimes it just has to be done!!

 

[smmetz]

No problem, good questions.

First, I would keep doing the daily water changes until the amonia is below 0.25 Then, if it goes back over 0.25, do it again. I never did have a nitrite spike in my tanks after the amonia one, but if you do, keep that pretty low also.

Now - for water changes I put some of the water treatment stuff in each bucket full. However, I have read that many others take out the water, then add the de-chlorinator to the remaining water in the tank, then just add tap water.

Temperature is a good question. I usually just add a bit of hot water to each bucket full, until it feels roughly about the same as the water in the tank. For a 29 gallon, I would add a couple gallons at a time, then wait a few minutes. This will give the fish time to acclimate to any slight temperature variances.

You might have read this already, but do not touch your filter media. Do not change your filter cartridges, do not rinse them out. If you notice reduced water flow, you can rinse them out a little in a bucket of water you removed from your tank, during a water change. The bacteria to cycle your tank are in the filter media. Rinsing in chlorinated tap water will start you from scratch again. Also, make sure you filter media stays wet. (sometimes with hang-on-back type filters, the water drains back into the tank when you do a water change. Do not let the media dry out.)

 

[Minotaur]

Thanks... you folks are the best!

OK, water change is in the offing for tonight... and tomorrow... and then next day... and... I won't touch the filter cartridge. In fact we talked about that last night. I said that it probably wasn't a good idea to touch it because friendly bacteria grow in there. Since the tank hasn't established yet, we shouldn't touch it. In a few weeks when the tank is established I'll worry about changing the cartridge. The filter intake tube goes pretty far into the water; the cartridge is also submerged in a container in the filter housing. It should never drain out unless I up-end the filter or drain it myself.

I have an instant read cooking thermometer, so if I feel uneasy about the water temperature in the bucket, I can check it. The temp. here in NJ is dropping these days, and so is the temp. of our tap water.

Here we go!

I'll keep you posted.

 

[Glod]

When I do a water change on the big tank I usually fill it back up from a hose from the outside tap. I live in Scotland so our weather is comparable to yours At worst the temp drops by maybe 2 degrees, the fish don't seem to mind and it doesn't take long to stabilise and return to it's normal temperature. You can add dechlorinator either to the buckets as you fill them, or to the tank, it doesn't make a huge difference as long as you add the right amount.

The only thing I would mention is, when re-filling the tank try not to hit any fish with the cold water. Sometimes you can't help it since they can be nosy little blighters but better safe than sorry I usually just aim the hose at the side of the tank and let the water run down.

Having recently finished the cycle on my own tank I'd back up what has been said here. Frequent water changes are the name of the game, just keep the ammonia and nitrites as low as you can so the fish don't suffer. My cycle started handling the ammonia after about 2 weeks, the nitrites spiked about a week later tho not as high as I had expected.

Nitrates will slowly rise as the cycle continues, this is the least toxic end result of the cycle. Once your ammonia and nitrite are down to 0 all the time you can keep an eye on your nitrate levels to determine how often you need to do a water change.

Good luck with your cycle ! I'm sure with your care the fish will be fine

 

[Miss Wiggle]

OK, water change is in the offing for tonight... and tomorrow... and then next day... and... I won't touch the filter cartridge. In fact we talked about that last night. I said that it probably wasn't a good idea to touch it because friendly bacteria grow in there. Since the tank hasn't established yet, we shouldn't touch it. In a few weeks when the tank is established I'll worry about changing the cartridge.

don't worry about changing the cartridge for a good while yet, if at all. The sponges hold all the bacteria that's keeping your tank healthy, throw them out and you have to start cycling the tank again. I'll literally only change mine if they're falling apart, and even then only change half at a time giving the new bit a good few weeks to establish a bacteria colony.

With filters all I do is when the flow rate drops a bit take a bucket of water from the tank, squeeze out the sponges etc in it, put them back in the filter. and that's pretty much it. I'll change sponges at most once every year.

lfs's and filter manufacturers will tell you they all need replacing monthly, it's a load of rubbish, they just want your money when you buy new ones each month.

 

[Minotaur]

OK I did the water change, about 6-7 gallons out of 29. Yes Glod you are right... "nosy little blighters"... they seemed to enjoy the pressure wave of the water spilling into the tank. I did add some warm water to the bucket, keeping the temp. to about 80 deg. using an instant read cooking thermometer.

I turned off the heater because it wouldn't be submerged anymore. And stupid me, worrying about the fish catching their death of cold forgot that the light heats up the tank too. The water stayed a constant 80 degrees even without the heater and siphoning off 6-7 gallons.

I added some chlorine remover, bacterial enhancer and the rest of the ammonia remover. I let it go about an hour or two then tested everthing. Ammonia wasn't noticeably lower, but everything else I tested was perfect... pH was about 7.2ish, chlorine=0, hardness was "moderate". I tested the ammonia this morning and it was only slightly lower... ~1.0 The fish are super active, though. They are scampering all over the place, foraging, chasing and exploring. I'll do another change tonight.

Miss Wiggle... thanks for the heads-up on the filter cartridges. I have the Top Fin filter with the carbon bag insert. And yes, it says replace every 3-4 weeks. I bought 2 spares to keep on hand.

So by the time I do have to change the cartridge and insert a new one way down the road, I should have a large enough colony of bacteria in the water itself to keep the cycle going?

With filters all I do is when the flow rate drops a bit take a bucket of water from the tank, squeeze out the sponges etc in it, put them back in the filter. and that's pretty much it.

I can understand the logic there... just flush out the particulate matter that's clogging the filter cartridge in the same water that has the bacteria.

See, I didn't spend 5 years in a 2 year college (university to you folks) for nothing.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah basically, clear it out if gets clogged with cr@p, but in the water that contains the bacteria rather that new which could potentially contain things like chlorine that kill off the bacteria colony.

the carbon inserts are a slightly different though, activated carbon actually only works in your tank for about 6 hrs, it is a good filter medium but most people don't use it in they're tanks full time. put one in after you've medicated the tank or something like that and it'll get rid of all the meds. but for day to day filtration, it's not a lot of good.

it's actually best to remove the carbon filter for the time being, replace it with another sponge, filter floss, or something like the ceramic media's you can get, these will give more capacity for a bigger bacteria colony to build up. Then also if you've 2 bacteria colonies then when a sponge really does need replacing you've still got another colony already there.



oh and yeah told you not to worry over the temp, the fishies will be fine

 

[Minotaur]

yeah basically, clear it out if gets clogged with cr@p, but in the water that contains the bacteria rather that new which could potentially contain things like chlorine that kill off the bacteria colony.

Yep, gotcha... makes sense. Boy, I like being smart.

the carbon inserts are a slightly different though, activated carbon actually only works in your tank for about 6 hrs, it is a good filter medium but most people don't use it in they're tanks full time. put one in after you've medicated the tank or something like that and it'll get rid of all the meds. but for day to day filtration, it's not a lot of good.

it's actually best to remove the carbon filter for the time being, replace it with another sponge, filter floss, or something like the ceramic media's you can get, these will give more capacity for a bigger bacteria colony to build up. Then also if you've 2 bacteria colonies then when a sponge really does need replacing you've still got another colony already there.

OK, now I think I'm beginning to get it. I have to check which type of cartridge I actually got. Top Fin has one that has three filtering methods in one... Top Fin Bio 3 Filter Cartridges

oh and yeah told you not to worry over the temp, the fishies will be fine

Yeah... we have a saying over here... "I'm from Missouri". It means I have to see for myself.

 

[Minotaur]

I haven't been around for a while. But in the interim, a few things have changed.

The ammonia level in the tank has finally dropped to almost non-existent. This is about 6 weeks of the tank cycling. I think with one more water change the ammonia level will be 0. I have some algae that the fish graze on, and the water is crystal clear.

I replaced the Topfin 30 filter with a better one. I can't think of the name, but it is the one with the three different inserts: charcoal, bio, and sponge that are changed on a staggered basis. And it is a 50 gallon capacity. The fish seem fat, active and happy enough, though there were a few casualties.

Last weekend we lost two mollies, an orange and silver; a few weeks ago a pink kissing gourami; and just this morning my bala. Four out of 17 in the past 6 weeks. I knew this could happen, hoped it wouldn't, but am disappointed nonetheless.

So our community now consists of 13 in a 30 gallon tank:

1 powder blue gourami
2 gold gouramis
1 pink kissing gourami
1 striped gourami
1 tiger barb
1 black skirted tetra
1 clown loach
1 pleco
1 black mollie
1 dalmatian mollie
1 orange mollie
1 rainbow shark

I'm at my limit, aren't I?

 

[catxx]

i think you're pushing your limit sweetie.

a lot of your fish will get big, the kissing gourami & the bala for instance, and the tiger barb is going to get nippy because he's not in a school, they need to be in groups of six or more, same as the black skirt tetra.

balas get to just over 12" and need to be in groups. clown loachs also reach 12" but grow very slowly, they like company of their own.

do you know what type of plec you have? if he's a common or sailfin, he can get to about 24" long, but i'm hoping he's just a bristlenose, which only gets 5"-6"!! plecs will substantially effect your bioload, they're heavy poopers.