Tetra Cardinal Getting Sick

[tata]

Hello,
 
I have around 25 tetra cardinal, on my community 330L tank.
I also have 4 discus, 1 appistogramme, some snials and amano shrimps.
 
I noticed on 1 or 2 tetras with some raised scales, 2 or 3 weeks ago. Now I have around 8 or 9 with the same sympthom. Some of them look very bad. They also have some kind of white spots, it seems a cystus but I am not sure.
 
They look like this:
 

 
 
The tank has NO2=0, NO3=5, 30ºC and PH=6.3 .
 
What do you suggest me?
 
Thanks!

 

[fluttermoth]

Is that a pic of one of your actual fish?
 
Have you tested the water at all (and if so, what were the results)?

 

[tata]

Hi,
 
Is not my fish, I had no chance to take a clear picture. But my cardinals looks exactly like this one.
 
The parameters are good: NO2=0, NO3=10, T=30ºC ( I have discus) and PH=6.2 .
 
I think this is some kind of dicease, maybe external parasites.

 

[fluttermoth]

Well, the white 'worm' looking things are a parasitic infection called Dermocystidium or Dermosporidia, which is incurable but which doesn't harm or kill fish and will drop off on it's own eventually.
 
It does seem though that Dermosporidia/Dermocystidium can weaken fish and leave them open to picking up bacterial infections.
 
I'd be inclined to try a course of Myxazin, if that's available where you are. It's my 'go to' med for anything that might be bacterial in origin.

 

[tata]

Hi,
 
This pic is from one of my fish. This one does not seem to have raised scales. Instead he has some kind of cystus. What you think my friend?
 

 

[fluttermoth]

I believe that most spots and lumps on fish are bacterial in origin; it's certainly how I would treat it.
 
Whereabouts in the world are you located?

 

[tata]

I am in Portugal!
 
One more pic, on this cardinal we can see some kind of lump on the poor fish mouth:
 

 

[DoubleDutch]

Could be a case of Columnaris bacteria, as I see dark faded spots (false NTD) and mouthulcers.


http/www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html

 

[tata]

Thanks.
 
In your opinion this can not be lymphocystis?
 
I ask because all the fish, does not show any sick behaviour, they seem all happy swimming around, not hiding and eating as usual.

 

[DoubleDutch]

Think you're spot on with that. Just read a nice article about that and al signs are there indeed !
You're right with the fish showing more problems than this with Columnaris (False NTD). Also gills are affected and often fish show finrot as well. Think the first pic (not your fish) has different problems to yours.
Untreatable I understand, could disappear of it's own, but can be lethal for weakened fish.
If so you only can wait I think and treat possible secundairy diseases / problems for the time beeing.
It just looks awefull grrrrrr

 

[tata]

It's so hard to make an accurate diagnostic...
 
Looking at your Columnaris article, there are some environmental conditions I perfectly recognize on my tank.
 

Columnaris, which is a gram negative aerobic bacterium, is often prevalent in systems with poor mineralization.
See this article: “Importance of Calcium, Electrolytes and more in Aquariums”.
As well; crowded conditions (often in re-circulating systems), aggressive inhabitants, poor handling, poor Redox Balance, sudden temperature spikes (or prolonged temperatures much above 80F), and the stress from high bio loads are all conditions that can allow for an opportunistic Columnaris infection.
Please note; high bio loads is more symptomatic of Aeromonas or Saprolegnia infections.
 

 

 
Poor Mineralization: YES (120 TDS, KH=1 and PH=6.2)
crowded conditions : NO (330L, few fish)
aggressive inhabitants: NO (Everyone is peaceful)
poor handling : NO
prolonged temperatures much above 80F : YES (86F/30C)
 
But, what make me thing this can not be Columnaris, is the fact these white patches are there for some times (>3 weeks), and fish are eating normally. I think Columnaris is a more aggressive.

 

[DoubleDutch]

Think we might have come to te same conclusions. Columnaris is more agressive (also to other fish) but is treatable with meds. You put me on track with this one, having seen more threads at several forums where it seemed untreatable and als not highly contagious as Columnaris is to my believe. Often the disease seemed to species specific (cardinals and neons). That could be the case when they got the virus elsewhere / earlier and now are getting ill by it (just as Dwarf Gourami disease = also an Iridovirus). The need to euthanise ill/infected fish isn't as necessary a I thought it was!!! Glad about that. But, as you mention, still diagnosing one of these isn't easy !!!

Cheers,
Aad

Thanks for making some things more clear to me !!!

 

[tata]

Hi again Aad,
 
The more I read, the more I get confused....
 
I have talked to a friend who suggest me this seems to be the Tetra Dicease (Pleistophora)....
And taking a deep though, I realize this shouldn't be lymphocystis. The dicease is already spread on 25% of my tetras, I don't think lymphocystis is all that contagious.
 
In fact, I noticed one of the tetras is isolating from the group. He is the one in worst conditions, I suspect he will the first to go. 3 more pics, what you thinK? (Thanks for your help!)
 

 
 

 
 

 

[DoubleDutch]

Awwwww sorry to see your fish in such a terrible state.

But that's NTD and untreatable to my knowledge!!! So there are three diseases that have for a great part the same symptoms. Don't believe though that real NTD makes the fish have the mouthulcers as yours have. Does "belong" to false NTD (Columnaris) and/or Lymphocystus.

NTD : Colorloss, Spots, finrot, strange swimming
False NTD : Same as above and mouthulcers, saddleback
Lymphocystus : Same as above, (mouth)ulcers, but not the strange swimming, fish will eat and could survive without treating.
And : there could be new diseases due to the pressure breeding / extensive use of meds ans antibiotics in Asia,

NTD is quite rare overhere.
Grrrrr, I can't stand this.

 

[tata]

OK, I need to start doing something.
 
In your opinion, the best bet is False NTD (Columnaris) ?
 
Thanks!