Stocking Levels

[Jules H-T]

This thread has been set up as an effort to allow this thread to return to topic.:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=117052

May I request that my thread contains no flaming please? It's purpose is not to assassinate Thinkfish or his ideas.

@ Thinkfish. I didn't even bother to look at your site when I initially read the above thread, because websites talking rubbish are easily found and I didn't need another one to look at. However, your reply made me sit up, not least because of your measured reply in the face of some harsh critisism (bear in mind there are lots of youngsters here who I am sure didn't mean to insult you personally), but because your points were very persuasive indeed.

I have joined www.thinkfish.co.uk (jules), and recreated my tank (went for Pearl Danio as I couldn't find Leopards). The details of my setup are in my sig.

My general feeling, is that the tank is looking pretty much fully stocked. I am prepared to be open minded about things though. The calculator is giving me 241cm of fish out of 340cm available (291cm if I go with internal filter).

According to your calculator, I could up my numbers to 10 Clown Loaches and 7 Denison's Barbs. In my mind that seems a bit like shoe horning them in, given the size they grow to.

There are also compatability issues as follows:

1. Clown Loach may get too large to be kept with Neon Tetras
2. Clown Loach may get too large to be kept with Coolie Loaches
3. Kribensis may get too large to be kept with Neons
4. Large Pearl Gouramies may be able to eat small Neon Tetras
5. Denison's Barbs will grow too large to be kept with Neon Tetras
6. Denison's Barbs may be too active or grow too large to be kept with Male Dwarf Gouramies
7. Neon Tetra must kept in quantities of 6 or more.
8. Pearl Gourami must kept in quantities of 2 or more.

My personal thoughts on them would be:

1. Yep, the neon's days are numbered
2. I hadn't considered that a problem, but don't know. Do you think they'll eat them?
3. See 1!
4. See 1!
5. See 1!
6. Hmm, I hadn't really though of that as an issue, they tend to leave each other alone. Your thoughts?
7. Well, I'm not going to make a bad situation worse!
8. Fair enough, perhaps I'll look into that a bit more.

No great surprises apart from number 2. The compatabilities all seem sensible, and it sets them out nicely.

What are your personal thoughts on initially my current setup, and secondly on my gut feeling that I would certainly feel that I'd be pushing it a fair bit going up to the maximum suggested stocking level (particularly given that I'd upped it on the Clown Loach side)?

I take your point that the calculator doesn't take account of individual fish (I didn't think fishes was a word BTW?), but I plan for all of the clowns/denison's/plec/kribs to make it to full maturity.

Would it be that tricky to stick something in your calc to match up a max tank width/height/length rating for each fish type to the data entered by your users?

Just for further info, I went with Oversized internal filter, when in reality I have a Fluval 3, a Fluval 4, and a powerhead 401 pulling a UGF. Was that correct? I converted inches to cm at a rate of 2.5 (BTW, having inches on your calc might be handy too).

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The other thing I considered doing some time ago was adding a Black Ghost Knife Fish (a mate has two in a 3ft tank and I thought about rescuing one). I dismissed the idea because of the size of them when fully grown.

First up it didn't break the bank in terms of stocking, even when I downgraded to a normal internal filter, which didn't surprise me given the backdrop to the whole discussion.

However what did surprise me a bit was the lack of compatability issues. I would have thought they might have found the barbs too active, mabe the kribs too aggressive, and the neons lunch. What do you (or any other experienced fishkeepers with first hand knowledge of BGK) think?

 

[CFC]

Stocking rules ( i use this word reluctantly, guidelines is a better word ) are for new and inexperienced fish keepers and are more there to try to prevent a lot of the problems assosiated with new fish keepers such as new tank syndrome than dictate exactly how many fish a tank can hold. Unfortunately too many people take these "rules" as being set in stone and really believe that if you stock your tank with any more than the customary 1" per gallon or 1" per 10 square inches of surface area then your tank will crash all your fish will die and you will be arrested by the fish police on charges of death by over stocking.
I reality fish keeping is not an exact science and once you have the feel for your aquarium and how its inhabitants act there is no reason why with adequate filtration and aeration you cannot push your stocking levels to 2 or even 3 inches of fish per gallon, of course this depends on the size of the fish, how much waste they produce the level they occupy in the tank and how aggressive they may or may not be. For instance a 180 gallon (6x2x2') aquarium with a school of 200 neon tetras would be over stocked if going by the "rules" but in reality could easily support another 160 inches of small bottom or surface dwelling fish, on the other hand the same tank with 6 adult Oscars would be overstocked despite the fish only ammounting to 96 inches.
When it comes to stocking a tank the best guideline is to use your common sense and experience to make your decisions on which fish to add and if you dont have any common sense or experience then stick to rules like the inch per gallon rule until you've developed some.

 

[Notsofab]

CFC - this thread came about from another thread where the 'Community Calculator' on www.thinkfish.co.uk came in for a verbal battering.

I would welcome your comments on www.thinkfish.co.uk, not just the 'Community Calculator' but the rest of the site content as well.

 

[CFC]

I've taken a look at the Think fish site and wasnt overly impressed with what i could see, i'm always skeptical of free sites which force you to join before you can use the services and from what i could use it is much the same as any other internet aquarium site (PFK, Tropical fishfinder etc). I didnt want to join the site so i wasnt able to use the tank calculator so cant really comment but i will say that because so many factors need to be taken into account that any stocking calculator will be flawed in one way or another, usually either by stating stupidly low "safe" numbers of fish or by recomending incompatable tankmates. If someone is not experienced enough to make their own judgements then i would recomend the inch per gallon rule rather than a computer generated stock list.

 

[OohFeeshy]

I agree with cfc's view. I mean, obviously there is reason, but for instance, my 20g basically has 3 swordtails, 8 zebra danios, 5 cories, 2 tetras and 13 'khuli' loaches. While, on the inch per gallon rule, I have about 92 inches of fish (wow ) , I also have a fluval 2+, an elite mini, a small air powered filter and when the darned thing gets a plug on it, one that does about 500lph. The fish also eat like there's no tomorrow- the danios clear up any floating bits and the cories/khulis eat anything on the bottom. I also have quite a lot of live plants (although I need to re-do them and get more) and (umm, most of the time ) do 25% WC every week. The only reason the tank looks full is because the danios move so fast they make the space fill in Although once I get a tank I can hide them in, I'll be moving the swordtails and cories, and possibly tetras (none of those I like much, nice to loo at but don't do much). I'll still keep the khulis though, maybe even get more Anyway, the point I'm putting across, is the tank has 0 ammonia or nitrite and nitrate, I'm not sure on, but last time I got it tested it was definately in reasonable limits.

The compatability pointd though, are rubbish.
1. Clown Loach may get too large to be kept with Neon Tetras
Even a 12'' clown loach wouldn't eat a neon. They move too fast and inhabit different areas of the tank. Not likely.

2. Clown Loach may get too large to be kept with Coolie Loaches
As above really, a 12'' clown loach isn't going to eat a 4'' khuli.

3. Kribensis may get too large to be kept with Neons
No, the only trouble with kribs is they get aggressive when breeding (especially to bottom dwellers)

4. Large Pearl Gouramies may be able to eat small Neon Tetras
Not likely.
5. Denison's Barbs will grow too large to be kept with Neon Tetras
Not likely.
6. Denison's Barbs may be too active or grow too large to be kept with Male Dwarf Gouramies
Possibly on the too active part, gouramis don't tend to mix well with fast movers.
7. Neon Tetra must kept in quantities of 6 or more.
Well, yes.
8. Pearl Gourami must kept in quantities of 2 or more.
Never heard that before.

 

[Inchworm]

I have to say that I agree with CFC 100% on this one!

Fishkeeping is an Art based on Scientific principles, and therefore there is no one set of rules that can govern anyone's success. There are simply too many variables. Each tank is different and each person who keeps more than one, for any length of time, will be aware of this.

While the scientific side of the hobby deals with situations such as cycling, growing plants, medicating diseased fish, etc., there is much more involved to being a successful fishkeeper. Once those aspects have been studied and applied to a tank, the fish themselves come into play. Only a hobbyist who has actually kept a kind of fish, and watched it day in and day out, can really understand its needs, behaviors and how it interacts with other fish.

Even then, these living creatures can be unpredictable, and this is where the art or craft of fishkeeping becomes important. With experience, a person will come to sense when something is going to go wrong in a tank, often well before it happens. Perhaps they see that the fish are acting a little differently than normal; maybe they are just a little bit peaked. Or sometimes the smell or appearance of the water will not seem right. Sometimes it's just a feeling that something is amiss. A skilled fishkeeper will be able to make an educated guess and quite often make changes to head off trouble. There is no computer based program that can do this. The human factor is what is important here.

With this in mind, members participate in forums like ours. Here is a place to share out skills and knowledge and to let our real life experience guide newcomers to our wonderful hobby. It's a place where newbies should be encouraged to ask questions and get specific answers and as they grow in experience, to pass their skills and enthusiasm on to others.

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Since it is not our policy at TFF to allow members to attack other forums or websites, I have removed the thread mentioned above and will be closing this one too. IMHO, the discussion is a valid one, but it's not right to name names and cause someone to have to come here to try to defend his site. If you wish to continue a discussion of "old" vs "new" ways of doing things, please start a new thread and leave out any references to other sites.