=:[ Starting With Help | 21 Questions ]:=

[aQuaMan 314]

Hey. I've been reading the forums for quite some time now and learned a great deal from everyone. Thanks for all the help! After countless minutes ( I mean hours ) I came to the conclusion that it would be best to start my own topic that focuses on my 'road to stardom.' As you can tell I'm a newbie to all this so please, if I ask something really simple or out there, don't mind it too much. What maybe simple to others may not be for someone else.. heh.. I sound like a parent or something which I'm not.

Anyway, here's the scenario:
- I'm starting my own salt water 20 gallon tank. It's small I know, but I don't want to over do it on my first try. I'll learn from my mistakes and later on when I think I can handle those bigger 100+ gallon tanks, I'll definitely switch over.
- I actually experimented with fresh water fish for 3 months and to this day, they're doing great. I have a Black Dragon ( aka Black-Moore ) goldfish, a Shubukin goldfish, 5 colorful male guppies, and a snail -which I think has one of my guppies in his shell! When I cleaned out the tank I only found 4 of my guppies and from the looks of it, the back end of my snail shell has a bluish tint.. that was the color of guppy I'm missing I'm planning on putting them in seperate fish bowl later on.
- I know all about the books that I should read but in all honesty, first hand experience from others who have tried, made mistakes, and those who are in love with their tanks are more beneficial to beginners like me in my opinion.
- I have a Petco and Petsmart near me as well as a 'salt water fish' only store called Oceanarium. Problem is that store is way crazy on the prices. Live Rock there sells for $8.99 a pound! Premiumaquatics.com sells their Fiji for half of that!
- I have bought some supplies, mostly the essentials and some real good decor. I really want to set up the tank first before I even attempt to put any fish in there. Doesn't really matter if I wait a month or even three-four months.
- I'm not looking to go ALL out like I know many of you do.. well not yet of course.. so for now, I want to limit myself.

Supplies I have:
- 20 gallon tank with standard flourescent lighting
- Net
- Heater
- Temperature strip
- White Sand made by Nature's Ocean
- Instant Ocean Salt - 25 gallons
- Hydrometer
- Kent pH Buffer ( Powdery stuff )
- AquaClear 3 Stage Filter for 20 gallon tanks
- Whisper Filter for 20 gallon tanks
- No More Algae fizz tablets
- Aqua Safe water conditioner
- Flake food

Supplies I'm planning to get:
- 10-20 lbs of Fiji Live Rock. I'm still looking for the best place to get it though. As of yet, Premiumaquatics.com is my number 1 option.
- Medical tablets / drops to fight the harmful stuff ( whatever they maybe )
- Frozen or live foods
- Protein Skimmer?
- Coral?

Decor I have:
- A really big pirate ship that is sculpted to look like it was broken in half. It has alot of holes and room inside. I'm sure many of you saw this at your local Petco.
- Skeleton pirate leaning on a treasure chest holding a big jar of RUM. He lifts his hands when you connect him to an air pump.
- 20 gallon air pump with 8ft cord.
- Green reef plants. Not real though.

Decor I'm planning to get:
- Blue flourescent light.
- Laser show? ( Yes, as dull as this may seem I thought it would actually look somewhat amusing )


OK! So thats it for now. Sorry this was soooooooo long.
First and foremost, what do you guys think?
Is there something essential that I left out? If so, then please explain.

 

[aQuaMan 314]

Oh and I forgot to post this but of course.. any other opinions you guys will like to tell a newbie starting his very own tank will be helpful.
Also, is Premiumaquatics.com the best place to get Live Rock? I mean they sound very very reliable and they sell Fiji for a great price!

I'll be back later to ask more questions!

 

[Aquascaper]

To be completely honest i'm a little shocked that you've planned to do all this after doing 'countless hours of research'. I really don't mean to sound harsh but you don't seem to have taken any of it in

Ok.............

1) You say you don't want to overdo it on your first try so you're planing a 20g (Nano) tank. The biggest recommendation that is abundant on this and every other forum i've seen is that small saltwater tanks (Nano's) are not for beginners and that the larger the tank the more stable the parameters and therefore the easier they are to maintain. A good quote is "The solution to pollution is dillution", you'll see it a lot.

2) I'm concerned that you keep a fast swimming pond fish in an aquarium (the shubunkin) not to mention that you've mixed coldwater fish with tropicals. This to me does not bode well for your saltwater endeavours as it suggests a lack of research into the requirements of your fish.

3) You know the books you should read but would rather hear it from people who've made the mistakes, well if those people have read the books, done the research and still made the mistakes then that should tell you that there's a lot to learn about saltwater fishkeeping and that proper research is an essential part.

4) A saltwater aquarium is an expensive entity and although you can shop around to get good prices you will need to be prepared to pay much higher prices than freshwater stuff, don't go into this with false ideas, it is expensive and there are no real shortcuts. Live rock is one of the biggest expenses but is also the main filtration method for saltwater aquariums so buy decent stuff, cheap is not always the best - all I mean by that is don't automatically buy the cheapest, look at the quality first.

5) You say you want to set the tank up before adding any fish.......Great After all the comments i'm making (I know they are not nice) I really want to be positive about this. The best thing you can do is wait and take your time, rushing leads to nuke'd tanks!

6) You want to limit yourself is another good thing. Don't take on more than you can handle, find out what that fish or invert or corals needs to survive and look if you can give it that. Don't buy it and hope as you risk not just killing that purchase but the whole tank with everything in it, rocks and all.

7) Before you even consider corals you have to have a stable tank and understand water husbandry. I would leave corals well alone except for maybe some low light mushies, etc., with the standard lighting you will not be able to keep much else anyway.

Ok, that's the bad bit over.

With regards to what you have hardware-wise get rid of the 'No More Algae fizz tablets' as this is a saltwater tank not freshwater. The algae is totally different and they way to control it should never require you to be putting potentially harmful chemicals into the tank.
You shouldn't need 'Aqua Safe water conditioner' either as you should really only be using RO/DI water, there is no excuse not too, especially in a tank that only holds 20g.
As for the decor you're planning I won't comment on the pirate ship or the skeleton bubbler as I don't like them and certainly would never think of putting them in a saltwter tank ever (that's just my opinion though), as for the fake reef plants - upto you again, you may find that they get covered in algae and start to look horrible but at the end of the day it's your tank.
The blue light you mention is a good idea and is used on the majority of saltwater tanks as the blue brings out the colours more (as well as other benefits), the lasers...........no - you may think it looks amusing but firing laser light around the tank will not help the stress levels in the tank at all.

In no way is this meant to be a 'Don't do it' post, I hope that you will take this on-board and do a little more research into exactly what you want and how to achieve it. Maybe see if you can get a bigger tank, bigger being easier, what kinds of fish you like the look of, whether you want a reef or FOWLR tank. There is so much choice that the more specific you can be the better the help you will get. There is a lot of members in this section with lots of assorted knowledge that will be more than happy to help with more specific issues.

Above all.........Best of luck

Hopefully the rest of the gang will get on this post and pour on the positives

 

[SkiFletch]

Ok, where to begin. 20g is definitely considered a nano tank and not reccomended for the beginning marine aquarist. This is explained in some of the stickies within the nano section, but the general reason is this. Marine fish and habitats are much more sensetive to changes in water conditions from ideal (toxins, pH, temp, salinity, etc etc) than freshwater fish are. With a smaller water volume, small changes in environment have a stronger impact on the fish. Just think, if you put a teaspoon of sugar in a cup of coffee you can taste the difference, but if you put that same teaspoon in a whole pot of coffee you barely notice. That same principle applies to our tanks. Many experienced nano aquarists can tell you horror stories of small problems "nuking" their whole tank, hence the reccomendation to start in the 40+ gallon range. Its more costly in setup, but cheaper in the end when you dont kill your whole tank 3 times over. All that being said, if you really want to do a nano, you can start that way, but be prepared to read a LOT, and to SLOW with anything you do to your tank. We're talking infinite reserves or patience here.

All that said, lets see what you need:
Go ahead and dump the Kent pH Buffer and No More Algae fizz tablets, they're not advisable for a nano. Most people around here use liverock as their filtration instead of standard mechanical filters as the mech filters cant remove nitrates from the water. Nitrates are a huge enemy in SW setups so what people usually use in larger aquariums is a sump with refrigium. I've seen a few small hang on back sumps with a place for macro algae and little light, but not sure what your space issues are. Think the last place I saw them was on Ebay. Protein skimmers are good to have, but I dunno what's out there for the 20gal size.

As for stores, you can use Petco for hardware purchases, but dont buy anything living from there. If the prices at your local store are too expensive, ordering online is safer than getting anything from Petco. I've never once seen a petco with tanks that I'd consider purchasing livestock from.

As for lighting, if you're planning on having any corals or invertebrates, you'll need some higher powered T5 power compact or metal halide lighting if you're going to have any success. Also, you're gonna want to consider a powerhead to create current in your tank to aid filtration and a bunch of test kits so you know whats going on in your tank.

premiumaquatics has some good prices on LR and I wouldnt have trouble ordering from them

lol, beat me to it again

 

[aQuaMan 314]

:: AQUASCAPER
Ouch Aquascaper! I'm a happy-go-lucky kinda guy but after those comments I feel like I should kill myself. Lol, you know I'm just kidding. In all seriousness, I'm really thankful for the comments. I guess I should address what some of the confusion is about because I really didn't have time to post a lot of the things on my mind before.

1) You say you don't want to overdo it on your first try so you're planing a 20g (Nano) tank. The biggest recommendation that is abundant on this and every other forum i've seen is that small saltwater tanks (Nano's) are not for beginners and that the larger the tank the more stable the parameters and therefore the easier they are to maintain. A good quote is "The solution to pollution is dillution", you'll see it a lot.

- Okay, got it. Sounds like a good motto when it comes to the tank size. I will keep that in mind. Overall yes, I want to start out this small ( as in the 20 gallon ) and work my way up.. no harm in that right?

2) I'm concerned that you keep a fast swimming pond fish in an aquarium (the shubunkin) not to mention that you've mixed coldwater fish with tropicals. This to me does not bode well for your saltwater endeavours as it suggests a lack of research into the requirements of your fish

- When I started the fresh water fish, yes you're right, I didn't research into the fish as much as I should have. Other than what they eat and what type of groups they like to be kept in as well the temperture and environmental settings I just went into Petco and saw the coolest looking stuff out there. I get it though, mistake done.. don't drop the guillotine again!

3) You know the books you should read but would rather hear it from people who've made the mistakes, well if those people have read the books, done the research and still made the mistakes then that should tell you that there's a lot to learn about saltwater fishkeeping and that proper research is an essential part.

- I am doing research as we speak. I wanna start this set-up on the right foot. Still, a book can tell me one thing but an experience can certainly explain everything. So yes, I'm looking into all the techinical stuff but I would also like some help from people.. Not all the help but some would be more beneficial when a person can say something rather than a book.

4) A saltwater aquarium is an expensive entity and although you can shop around to get good prices you will need to be prepared to pay much higher prices than freshwater stuff, don't go into this with false ideas, it is expensive and there are no real shortcuts. Live rock is one of the biggest expenses but is also the main filtration method for saltwater aquariums so buy decent stuff, cheap is not always the best - all I mean by that is don't automatically buy the cheapest, look at the quality first.

- This is also something I learned along the way and believe me I don't plan to buy something for my salt water tank just because its the cheapest stuff out there. I was just asking about the Live Rock because from all the comments and descriptions I've seen, Fiji is almost EVERYWHERE. That salt-water store near me that I told you guys earlier ( aka Oceanarium ) sold the same type of rock as the ones in Premiumaquatics.com but at double the price. Doesn't it only make sense to go with the cheaper one if both are the same product? Also, the only way I found out about the LR website was from recommendations from people in posts and topics so I figured I should check it out. So in conclusion, price is not a big factor but I still want to limit myself. Thanks for this advice Aquascaper.

The No Algae Tablets and Water Conditioner I'll keep for my freshwater fish and after reading about Live Rock I really didn't think I needed them too much. Oh and before I forget, you mentioned "RO/DI water" can you please explain what that is? The laser thing was corney in my opinion too but it sounded ok at first. Thanks again Aquascaper! I know you're a pro at this and I would certainly like to get all the help I can get. Here's to a get great start! I'll definitely look forward to all the derogatory comments in the future.

 

[aQuaMan 314]

:: SkiFletch
First and foremost, thanks for the help!

All that said, lets see what you need:
Go ahead and dump the Kent pH Buffer and No More Algae fizz tablets, they're not advisable for a nano. Most people around here use liverock as their filtration instead of standard mechanical filters as the mech filters cant remove nitrates from the water. Nitrates are a huge enemy in SW setups so what people usually use in larger aquariums is a sump with refrigium. I've seen a few small hang on back sumps with a place for macro algae and little light, but not sure what your space issues are.

Got some questions that might blow your mind:
- Live Rock I know is a must for me but I was just wondering if I there would be a problem having a mech filtration system such as the one from Aquaclear along side LR?
- What's a clear definition of a sump? All I know is that it's another mini tank for your main set-up where various 'duties' can be performed such as medicating and other sorts of helpful labors.
- I might paint the back and side of my tank black being it's a great way to show the many colors of a SW tank with the right lighting. Would you recommend this and why or why not?

 

[crazyelece]

Well the start small and move to bigger works for freshwater, but in the saltwater world you need to start larger and move to smaller when you gain experience. I'd recommend a 55 or 75 gallon tank as a starter. Also when we say its expensive prepare to spend 10x what you would for freshwater. A good list of starter setup is as follows:
55 gal tank
55-75 pounds of live rock
wet/dry filter (or a custom sump would be better and you could use that 20 gal tank for this)
HOB overflow (or get a reef ready tank or have the tank drilled)
a couple powerheads (maxijets or seios)
a good quality heater (two slightly smaller ones are better than one larger)
return pump ( I like magdrives for the price, mag 7 would be a good choice)
skimmer (I would suggest the small coralife 65 super skimmer)
lighting (this is going to depend on what livestock you wish to try and keep, for a decent starting point a 260W PC fixture would support most of the hardy corals that a beginner typically starts out with and is still cost effective)
sand substrate (around 55 pounds of an agronite based marine sand)
RO/DI filter setup (ebay and buckeye field supply are good sources)
various extras like fish net, buckets, magfloat or other glass cleaner, etc.

Research the various parts and ask any questions regarding them.

Also painting the back and side is perfectly fine and is recommended over using a backround. This is due to saltwater getting between the backround and the tank, drying, and leaving the salt behind. This ends up looking tacky and most people don't like it. Eventually the back wall will get covered with coraline algea and you won't see the backround. I use a backround sheet that is more like a decal and sticks to the glass, this way water can't get inbetween but it is easily removable if I ever want to. Paint can be removed also but it requires scraping it off with a razor.

 

[steelhealr]

Hi and Welcome aboard aquaman . I really can't add too much to this thread so far....my fellow 'salties' here know their stuff. Let me just say that, we all remember the excitement of deciding to set up a marine tank and we're ready to help, but, you must be prepared before stepping into the 'marine ring'. Aquascaper was just trying to keep you from making the the first deadly mistake by, well, 'roughing you up a bit'. I say that tongue in cheek, but, he's right with what he said.

You really MUST prepare before startup. Sometimes reading can be a pain for some, but, marine tanks can be unforgiving, ESPECIALLY starting out with a nano. My tank is coming up on one year and I still struggle with it. Not only that, even after all this time 'reefing', if I decided to go to a larger tank, I'd have to go back to reading books and study up on posts here. The difference is really there.

Try getting a couple of books first...check out the realm of knowledge pin. Most of them are monographs (short manuals). You'll have a lot more fun here catching one of us off guard than being spoonfed. Our favorite marine motto here, " Beauty happens slowly; disaster comes quickly". SH

 

[demonmagus]

All these mottos make saltwater people seem morbid

 

[Aquascaper]

I'm glad I didn't offend and that I haven't put you off starting a saltwater tank aQuaMan 314

If you can take a hit like that then you're off to a good start .
As steelhealr says, it is exciting to be setting up a new tank but patience is the key. Take you time, read the websites & ask the questions that way you learn more and understand the underlying issues behind the advice given.

There's nothing worse than making a mistake and not learning from it apart from not being able to stop others from doing the same. You'll find that some replies will be quite scathing and sometimes abrupt, nothing is meant by this and we've all been 'roughed up a bit' i'm sure

Usually one of us has 'been there, done that' and lived to tell the tale and we're all happy to answer questions as long as the information is digested. Personally, there's nothing more irritating than someone who asks the same question, just phrased differently on multiple occassions (this is usually because the reply they got the first time was a no to something they wanted to do). Other members get wise to this quite quickly and normally those people will just fade into oblivion never to become 'salties'

Good luck on your adventure into the Marine world & I hope to be pointing out flaws in your plans for many months to come (joking)

 

[Navarre]

Hello and welcome to the Marine forum of TFF.

I will not go over the comments that have been given above as they are sound bits of advise, However i will try and clarify one question you rasied that i dont think other people picke dup on,

You asked why should you purchase more expensive liverock in 1 shop when th exact same fuji liverock is cheaper in another shop. The rason for this is because although both might be Fuji rock, you may not be aware that they com ein "Grades". "C, B, A" are the usual imports you can get with grade "A" being the best (well almost) . Ask at your LFS what grade their liverock is. If its grade "A" and cheaper than the other shop then go for it! Before buying however make sure you inspect it.. smell it as well cos if it smells like rottne eggs then it needs cycling. If you see lots of growths and worms etc living on the surface then this is good quality rock.

There is another Grade above "A" but this is rare and expensive. Its called "Decorator Grade" this is usually prime bits of rock that have large amounts of life on its surface. This price for this type of rock is high and mo st shops dont even stock it however.

There is no reason of course why a grade"C" rock cannot become a grade "A" rock over time as more life grows oni t. What is most importanbt however is to see how much water the rock can hold. A good test is to asj at the shop for them to remove a bit of rock from the water and see how much water drains off it. If you see lots of water pouring out from the rock then this means its porous and will harbour lots of good bateria. If the water stops pourinf quickly and it looks like most came off the surface anyway then leave it where it is as this rock is far too dense and wont have enough bacteria to filter your tank.

Good luck with your research

 

[SkiFletch]

Got some questions that might blow your mind:
- Live Rock I know is a must for me but I was just wondering if I there would be a problem having a mech filtration system such as the one from Aquaclear along side LR?
- What's a clear definition of a sump? All I know is that it's another mini tank for your main set-up where various 'duties' can be performed such as medicating and other sorts of helpful labors.
- I might paint the back and side of my tank black being it's a great way to show the many colors of a SW tank with the right lighting. Would you recommend this and why or why not?

I have to agree with what Navarre said on LR, there is a difference when purchasing it. He covered it all in his post so I wont bother adding to it but I will answer your questions for me. Porous LR acts as your biological filtration without the need for a mechanical filter. It's porous spaces house your bacteria that break down ammonia and nitrites (like a mech filter and its surface over time will be covered in coralline algae which will remove nitrates from water. Nitrates are very dangerous in marine setups as opposed to freshwater. You dont want your nitrate level climbing much over 20ppm whilst 80ppm is fine for freshwater. This nitrate buildup is a huge enemy of most nano tank users and a big reason people advocate such caution when going to a nano setup.

I could give you a clear definition of a sump, but Melev's Reef does a better job at explaining it than me.

Painting the back side of the tank is a great idea. Most people just use flat latex paint as you can peel it away with a razor blade if you ever want to change color. Just make sure you handle painting it BEFORE you put water in it

 

[Aquascaper]

Just make sure you handle painting it BEFORE you put water in it

I have had tanks in 4 different locations in the living room and two of the locations still have blue or black paint on the walls where i've tried to paint the tank while its was setup using a radiator roller brush

Over the years i've found the best type of paint for this purpose is Ronseal One Coat Tile Paint, goes on in one coat (surprisingly) and forms a rubbery textured surface that water just flows off.

 

[Opcn]

I'm not going to take the time to read all that, but I will say happy go lucky and marine fish tank are not always the best combination, sometimes you have to look at the grave truth of the situation, its the only way to steer clear of certasin desaster

 

[crazyelece]

Another thing with the live rock and cost is if it is cured. Most of the local places around my area sell it both ways. And cured always costs double what uncured goes for. If the local rock is cured it could be the main reason it costs more. Also PA handles a lot of online rock orders across the whole country so they can usually sell it cheaper as they handle much more quantities than the average LFS.