St Icky Situation

[Bozo]

Hi all,

As of one week ago, deposits of clouds / white debris or white slime appeared all over the tank and is spreading including and onto the gravel, decorations, CO2 Diffuser and filter BUT NOT present on plants, or driftwood. The water changes did not correct the spread of the clouds/slime. The slime or white clouds seem to be the problem as ever since its appearance the tank has been upset and in disequilibrium. I thought the slime was due to the ammonia/Ph spike – I was wrong.

Background Information: Prior to the clouds there was an ammonia and Ph spike which was corrected with water changes and addition of new ammonia removers and new carbon etc.. Ph and Ammonia levels are back to normal and NOT fluctuating. Temperature stable at 79-80 F.

Fish / Invertebrate Present:

1. 2 Clown Loaches – No sign of distress or sickness – Present Over 1 year in tank
2. 1 Silver Catfish - No sign of distress or sickness – Present Over four months in tank
3. 1 Ghost - No sign of distress or sickness – Present Over 1 Year in tank
4. Currently 3 Angel fish (relatively small) – No sign of distress or sickness. However, there are signs of “nipping” on the tails (This I think is important as the previous angel that died two days after the clouds started appearing and had signs of this too. It died displaying symptoms of: slime/clouds on the skin (similar to the slime/clouds on the bottom of the aquarium), gasping for air, fin deterioration, swelling of the belly. However, there was NO loss of coloration during the distress process and no reddening of the anus. –Remaining angels are less than 2 weeks in the tank and have been through the decontamination process.
5. Currently 2 Plecos – 1 with immediate distress with redness around the anus and swelling of the belly and loss of coloration. The other pleco is beginning to show signs of the same symptoms. One recently died following the exact symptoms. – Present Over 1 year in tank
6. 1 Blue Crayfish (small and young): All around the exterior there are deposits of white clouds/small pollops/slime clinging to the body and legs. – Present Over 3 months in tank.

Previously Attempted Treatments:

1. Triple Sulfa One treatment – Discontinued treatment as the slime persisted and an Angel fish died.
2. Sera Mycopur for parasitic slime and gill flukes – Three day treatment with carbon pad still in filter (I have found over the years that invertebrates cannot handle a full on treatment without the carbon pad; therefore I top-up the treatment throughout the day to compensate). The three day treatment relieved nothing. I even rubbed the lobster and Angel down with some of the mycopur in a desperate attempt to get rid of the clouds and slime.
3. Numerous water changes. Lots of Cycle and Aqua Plus and Waste Control.
4. I took out some gravel.

Currently:

I have recently begun using a new plant fertilizer (SeaChem: Flourish) I believed that it could be too powerful and is poisoning the tank slowly, therefore I made another water change and did NOT add ANY plant fertilizer. In addition, I have removed the plants and fertilizer sticks. I removed and thoroughly cleaned the decorations and washed the driftwood. I also added small amounts of aquarium salt just to see if it does anything. The white clouds are persisting and other fish are beginning to show the early signs of the symptoms and distress more specifically, the remaining two plecos of which one has lost color and the other losing its color slowly.

Freshwater Tank Components:

- 10 USGall Aquarium
- 1 Flora Glow Light
- Internal 2Plus Fluval Filter (equipped with carbon, foam and in a small sack; Peat fibers, ammonia and phosphate removers – the sack is changed once a week – Never been a problem)
- Air Curtain across the Bottom, back of the aquarium
- Single Air Bubbler
- Hagen CO2 Diffuser for plant growth
- Gravel – medium size Hagen gravel.
- Driftwood
- Two small aquarium decorations

Chemicals and Additives:

In use for time immemorial in this tank

- Aqua Plus
- Waste Control
- Cycle
- SeaChem Ph 7 Regulator and Buffer
- Trace amounts of Blackwater extract
- Hagen plant fertilizer sticks
- Ph Down (From time to time)
- Recent Addition of new chemical:
- SeaChem: Flourish Plant fertilizer

Note: Water changes are done regularly once a week. Never had any problems with fish dying only with plants.

Note:

Because of the presence of the Crayfish I am ever so careful not to add medicines that are harmful to invertebrates such as General Cure. Furthermore, because it is covered with the clouds and slime and needs to be treated I have found it to be more of a nuisance to find any medication to treat the slime/clouds.

I would be really grateful if someone could identify what is going on or able to present to me some ideas on how to proceed with treatment. I think maybe it might be two or three different things at work within the tank. Based on my limited knowledge of freshwater aquariums it seems to be a combination of symptoms from, but not entirely, Dropsy, Ich and Velvet if not more.

 

[blue_ram]

I see quite a few things wrong with your setup/actions.

1) Most fish you have aren't suitable for 10gallon. Infact most fish you have requires 75gallon+. Do some research on the fish you have; see how big they get.

2) Crayfish do not belong in the fish tank, unless you want your fish to become a feeder fish. Crayfish are nocturnal predators; they'll scavange or hunt when the light goes out. I really doubt blue crayfish are any different. Chances are they are normal crayfish with color morph.

3) The reason why the invertebrates, can tolerate some medication when carbon is added is because the carbon adsorbs most of the medication. You might as well not add any medication.

4) Don't start treating fish if you don't know what the disease is. The medication may be deadlier than the disease. Water change don't neccessarily purge the medication from the fish's body. So when you do water change and add different medication, you're basically mixing medications. That usually results in disaster, unless you know exactly what you're doing.

5) You're turning you tank into toxic chemical soup. Have you ever thought of what kind of chemical reaction that goes on with all the chemicals you're adding? ALL chemicals desinged for aquarium use tends to react with other chemicals in the water. Otherwise they wouldn't work! Most respectable companies will guarantee safety ONLY with their own product. It's impossible to tell coutcome when you mix their product with the competitors product. With the medications you're adding, things only gets even more complicated.

Are all fish covered with the white slim as well? Or only the dead/dying fish? If later, my hypothesis is that the white slime isn't really a disease. It's more likely some fom of precipitate that formed from all the chemicals that you're adding. Who know what kind of toxin it produced as a byproduct.

I recommend that you add only dechlorinator to the water. 10gallon is too small to mess around with pH up/down buffers. Fish can die from pH shock if it changes drastically. Even soft/acidic water loving fish like discus can live happily in hard alkaline water.

So my recommended course of action would be:
1) remove everything, and give it a through cleaning with DECHLORINATED water
2) remove all fertilizer, and anything in the water that didn't come out of faucet (including the medication)
3) replace the gravel, and all other equipments
4) add fresh carbon to the water
5) add fish back to the tank

Once you done that, and the cloudy water/slime still appears, then report back to us.

 

[Bozo]

Thank you for your detailed response. I still have a few questions though...

The "chemical mixing" are you referring to the Cycle/AquaPlus/SeaChem Fertilizer etc??

The reason for the Ph regulator is because where I am the water out the tap is incredibily acidic so without this my Ph is really high. - Are you saying this is part of my problem because I've been using it for over a year and never had this problem, my other tank is fine.

As for my fish - as described in my first post - the most senstive fish (ie. the ghost) is totally fine. It's my plecos that are suffering the most and I've found over the past 10 years these fish are the hardest to kill. Hence why I'm so confused. The slime is only on the sick fish.

After doing this "dechlorinated cleaning" do I need to wait a period of time before replacing my fish? And can I clean my gravel this way as well - I think it's necessary to make sure all this slime is gone before replacing it.

Also, with the fish - the water they are stored in during cleaning... can this be added back to the clean tank or not?? Should I do the typical bag acclimation and avoid adding the old water?

Thanks so much for your help.

I see quite a few things wrong with your setup/actions.

1) Most fish you have aren't suitable for 10gallon. Infact most fish you have requires 75gallon+. Do some research on the fish you have; see how big they get.

2) Crayfish do not belong in the fish tank, unless you want your fish to become a feeder fish. Crayfish are nocturnal predators; they'll scavange or hunt when the light goes out. I really doubt blue crayfish are any different. Chances are they are normal crayfish with color morph.

3) The reason why the invertebrates, can tolerate some medication when carbon is added is because the carbon adsorbs most of the medication. You might as well not add any medication.

4) Don't start treating fish if you don't know what the disease is. The medication may be deadlier than the disease. Water change don't neccessarily purge the medication from the fish's body. So when you do water change and add different medication, you're basically mixing medications. That usually results in disaster, unless you know exactly what you're doing.

5) You're turning you tank into toxic chemical soup. Have you ever thought of what kind of chemical reaction that goes on with all the chemicals you're adding? ALL chemicals desinged for aquarium use tends to react with other chemicals in the water. Otherwise they wouldn't work! Most respectable companies will guarantee safety ONLY with their own product. It's impossible to tell coutcome when you mix their product with the competitors product. With the medications you're adding, things only gets even more complicated.

Are all fish covered with the white slim as well? Or only the dead/dying fish? If later, my hypothesis is that the white slime isn't really a disease. It's more likely some fom of precipitate that formed from all the chemicals that you're adding. Who know what kind of toxin it produced as a byproduct.

I recommend that you add only dechlorinator to the water. 10gallon is too small to mess around with pH up/down buffers. Fish can die from pH shock if it changes drastically. Even soft/acidic water loving fish like discus can live happily in hard alkaline water.

So my recommended course of action would be:
1) remove everything, and give it a through cleaning with DECHLORINATED water
2) remove all fertilizer, and anything in the water that didn't come out of faucet (including the medication)
3) replace the gravel, and all other equipments
4) add fresh carbon to the water
5) add fish back to the tank

Once you done that, and the cloudy water/slime still appears, then report back to us.

 

[blue_ram]

Thank you for your detailed response. I still have a few questions though...

The "chemical mixing" are you referring to the Cycle/AquaPlus/SeaChem Fertilizer etc??

Yes.

The reason for the Ph regulator is because where I am the water out the tap is incredibily acidic so without this my Ph is really high. - Are you saying this is part of my problem because I've been using it for over a year and never had this problem, my other tank is fine.

I've seen Malawi cichlids kept in pH of 6. Unless you have pH less then 6, I wouldn't worry. By itself, pH buffer is safe. However, when combined with other chemicals, its safety is questionable. In any case, verify the pH again in all your tanks, including the one you're having problems with. Also, in your other tanks, are you using the EXCACTLY the same chemicals in same dosage rate?

As for my fish - as described in my first post - the most senstive fish (ie. the ghost) is totally fine. It's my plecos that are suffering the most and I've found over the past 10 years these fish are the hardest to kill. Hence why I'm so confused. The slime is only on the sick fish.

The reason why I don't think this is an outbreak of pathogenic bacteria is because:

1. It's covering the gravel, but not the plants or driftwood
2. It's floating around making the water cloudy

There's really not much on the gravel for any pathogenic/opportunistic bacteria to feed on. Also, the fact that its not on the plants or driftwood makes it even less likely that it's a bacteria. The bacteria also do not float around in large numbers to cause cloudiness.

Don't know about pleco being super hardy fish. If you stick around this forum, you get to hear quite a few stories about dead/dying pleco. They are certainly hardier than discus, or even mormyrids, but that's not saying much.

After doing this "dechlorinated cleaning" do I need to wait a period of time before replacing my fish? And can I clean my gravel this way as well - I think it's necessary to make sure all this slime is gone before replacing it.

You shouldn't have to wait at all. Just don't clean the gravel too throughly. There's significant amount of nitrifying bacteria in the gravel, and through cleaning may significantly reduce their population.

Also, with the fish - the water they are stored in during cleaning... can this be added back to the clean tank or not?? Should I do the typical bag acclimation and avoid adding the old water?

Thanks so much for your help.

I would do the bag acclimation method. Just make sure the pH of the water in the bag is within .4 of the tank water. This probably means you may have to add the pH buffer to the tank again.

[edit] BTW, the last part is very important, as pH shock can kill.

 

[shiftingsands]

I use coral sand to raise my pH from 5.8 to around 7. If you can test for pH accurately you could experiment with some coral sand in a bucket to see how much you need to use to get to the right reading. You may need a handful or more, I used the sand as substrate as my water is so acid.
Or you can use a piece of white "ocean rock" which will do the same thing. When I am due to do water changes I draw off the water the night before into a big container which has a couple of inches of coral sand at the bottom and test it before adding to the tank. Works well for me.