Something Wrong

[chishnfips]

Hi folks, Over the last 6 months or so I have lost 3 of my favourite fish to an unknown disease, The fish were: my L001 pleco, one of my armoured catfish (hoplo) and one of my BN plecos. After losing the first fish I was not sure why it died as the other fish had stripped the body before I noticed, when the second one died, I was getting concerned now the third has gone I want to know what is doing it.

On inspection of the BN pleco I noticed strange white almost like growths coming off the skin (which weren't on the hoplo), but other symptoms were similar, i.e colour (whitish body fading of colours).

So I went onto the net and tried to remember what the fish were like to diagnose what it is: I have came to either of these two diseases: Glugea type growths or Ichthyosporidium (which I think is connected to the glugea.

What I need to know is how does this come about, I cant find any info on how the fish get it and there doesn't seem to be much of a cure. Has anyone had any experience with either of these. I dont want any more to die. Oh and it seems to have only affected the bottom dwelling fish, so I totally cleaned around the sand and moved it all about. ALso stats are all fine apart from the nitrates are slightly high.

cheers chish

 

[Miss Wiggle]

strange, sorry for your losses

can't say i've ever heard of either of those so can't give you any specific help, you'll probably have already checked these but a few pointers if you get any disease

have you checked the fish are getting the nutrition they need? researched preferred food and made sure they are getting it?

when you say nitrates slightly high, how high exactly?

what's your current maintenance routine and filtration?

high nitrates could indicate that either your filter is underperforming or that maybe you need to up your maintenance a bit, or if the fish are not getting appropriate food they could be then producing more waste (if their body can't process what they are getting) and therefore sending nitrates up too high

 

[chishnfips]

Hi miss wiggle cheers for the reply, the nitrates are at about 60, I filter with a fluval 4 plus and a fluva1, although I am getting a tetra tec external soon hopefully next week or just after.

They get fed with catfish pellets and cucumber although I am gonna start feeding with potato and courgettes as well.

My cleaning schedule is 15% once a week and about 40-50% every fortnight.

I think one of them might be a virul infection?

cheers chish

 

[Miss Wiggle]

planetcatfish profiles for the fishies who died

L001

hoplo catfish

BN plec (although could be one of a number of sp called BN's)

check out the feeding requirements, quite varied, i'm a firm believer in proper nutrition and i think its one factor very commonly overlooked and while it's unlikely in itself to cause diseases it leaves the fish weak and susceptible to problems, this combined with a slightly high nitrates means the fish are liable to picking up diseases

so while i can't help with a specific diagnosis i think you should double check the feeding requirements for all your fish and step up your maintenance until you get the new filter, this means they will be in prime condition to fight off anything that might arise

 

[chishnfips]

Hiya, cheers for the links, it seems all the fish I have though are getting the reccommended foods, I forgot to mention I use algae wafers as well. and feed with bloodworm and brine shrimp once - twice a week.

I agree though I should up the cleaning to 40% every week, I reckon.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

good stuff, glad they're getting good nutrition, stronger and healthier they are in general means your less likely to have any more deaths from this disease.

aye, nitrate reading of 60 isn't atroscious, but i would definately up the cleaning routine, if there's suspected problems in the tank try and keep it below 20ppm, just another thing to keep them stronger overall while you try to find a diagnosis and treatment

 

[chishnfips]

yip cheers miss wiggle for your input, muchly appreciated - dont you know - dont you know lol

 

[Miss Wiggle]

wierdo

 

[chishnfips]

yeah I get that a lot lol .

Another thing that just sprang into my mind was I have loads of bog wood and mopani wood in my tank, but one bit of wood I got was from an alder tree, it was cleaned and all that before going in but the bark is still on the wood, do you think that would cause anything, should I take it off?


cheers chish

infact now reading about it, that could be the problem, especially if something like insecticides were used and stored in the bark

 

[Miss Wiggle]

good question!! i assume of the tree in question had some sort of disease/fungus then that could get into the tank, however i wouldn't know if anything is transferrable between the tree and fish though?

if you haven't got any particular attachment to it and your concerned then take it out to be on the safe side

 

[chishnfips]

yeah I think I defo take off the bark and see what happens,

anyone else got any ideas about the marks on the fish?


cheers chish

 

[nmonks]

Hello chish --

There's no mention of water chemistry in your post. I only ask because Hoplosternum littorale in particular seems to inhabit hard, slightly alkaline water and apparently prefers slightly brackish water (!) in the wild. While I'm sure it will thrive in regular freshwater conditions, anything too acidic or soft may well be detrimental.

Nitrates of 60 mg/l are fine for most freshwater fish. Under laboratory conditions nitrate is thousands (actually, 3000) times less toxic than nitrite, and even with the most sensitive fish, such as rainbow trout, the lethal level is something over a couple of hundred mg/l. Certainly shouldn't cause death in fish as tough as Hoplosternum and Ancistrus!

Viral infections are unlikely to kill three different species of catfish. Viruses do cross species boundaries, it is true, but such occasions are rare, which is why things like bird flu make the headlines. Most viruses are very host specific. So a virus killing both a loricariid and a callichthyid seems very unlikely.

Now, while I can't pin down the problem from your symptoms, poisoning from sprayed wood usually causes very specific problems, typically respiratory failure. You see the fish gasping at the surface. I know, because I've done this. Oddly, by Panaque was one of the fish that survive that catastrophe -- and I'd predict air-breathing catfish to be generally more resistant to this than, say, cichlids. By the way, when this happened, the fish got sick at once, literally within ten minutes it was obvious something was wrong.

Anaerobic sand is less of a problem than you might guess. Even if H2S develops, the moment it touches the oxygenated water, it becomes neutralised, so you would need to have masses of the gas in the sand to cause serious problems. Dirty sand promotes bacterial decay similar to finrot, that much is certain, but it doesn't suddenly kill fish.

My money would be on slime disease of some type. These are quite common and often difficult to observe. Only some fish seem affected. I had an outbreak about a year ago where only the pufferfish got it, none of the catfish or tetras. The cure was simple enough, two salt water baths and a course of generic fungus/finrot remedy. The salt water baths in particular literally stripped away the slime within hours and cleaned up the wounds beautifully. Both fish recovered and are swimming about even now. Because slime disease is "multi-factorial" -- that is, caused by a variety of different things, often acting in concert -- pointing at just one key problem or mistake is difficult. The best that can be said is it is easily cured and doesn't seem either persistant or particularly contagious.

Cheers, Neale

 

[chishnfips]

hi neale cheers for the reply

All the sites I have visited say a ph of 5-8 is ok for the hoplo, The ph in my tank is 6.5 - 7, but do you reckon they would do better in my mbuna tank. Only things is there is no wood or plants in that tank for it. Although where I live the water is really soft so its difficult to harden it up.

I really dont know what it is thats doing it, all these deaths were over months not days, so its like something long term rather than a sudden death. Although saying that my bn plec looked fine prior to his death, until I noticed the marks or growths on his side. I will try and treat for the slime coat disease but how do I explain the growths that I found? What would I look for if it were a slime coat disease?

Would I look for bits of slime coming of the fish and a pale colouration?


cheers chish

 

[nmonks]

As for the conditions Hoplosternum littorale needs, take a read of stuff about where it occurs in the wild:

• Over its native range, this species occurs in sluggish fresh waters, man-made pools and channels, and brackish-water marshes, up to 16 ppt*. (Nico et al., 1996). Mol (1994) reported occurrence of the brown hoplo in waters rich in dissolved minerals, and absent in rainforest creek waters and black waters poor in dissolved materials. A decrease in growth rate for this species at low salinities has been reported (Mol, 1994). Furthermore, larvae appear incapable of surviving in rainwater (Mol, 1994).

Anything below pH 6.5 would be, in my opinion, the wrong water conditions. They probably want the sort of water chemistry goldfish like, i.e., pH 7.2-7.5 and around moderate hardness. My guess would be provided the mbuna weren't aggressive, the hoplo would be perfectly happy there.

I will try and treat for the slime coat disease but how do I explain the growths that I found? What would I look for if it were a slime coat disease?

Not sure. "Growths" covers a lot of ground. Are we talking dead skin peeling off, or clumps of slime, or cysts, or what?

Would I look for bits of slime coming of the fish and a pale colouration?

Basically yes, though often slime disease seems to go hand in hand with patches of dead skin. It's causes by parasites digging into the skin, and the skin produces extra slime to fight them off.

Cheers, Neale
*Approx 40% seawater!

 

[chishnfips]

Hi neale cheers again,

thanks for the link, I could move the hoplo over, the mbuna tank is pretty agressive, my upside catfish is in there though and is doing fine, so I may move them over also. The PH of the tank definately isn't under 6.5 so maybe they will be ok where they are?

The "growth" looked like a sist of some sort, it was like a big white slug stuck on the side of the fish, not living though like a parasite thats just the shape of it. But then again it may well have been dead skin like you mentioned.