*sigh* Bad Advice Abounds...

Yes I also agree that it must be a mix up.

During a fish in cycle the nitrite levels need to be kept below 0.25ppm, preferably 0 which is quite easily possible with sufficient water changes

Andy
 
As you say, P&J, 0 is never possible even in a fully cycled tank with a fully functioning bio-filter as the ammonia has to pass from the fish through the water and into the filter.

What is possible however, is to maintain a non-detectable level of ammonia and nitrite (the test kits we use for aquariums aren't sensitive enough to detect such small quantities).

As Arobinson1984 says, no detectable ammonia and nitrite is what to aim for, but it is generally accepted that not everyone has the time to maintain this, especially if you work full time, so we generally recommend trying to keep both levels below 0.25ppm as a realistic target which minimises the risk to the fish.

Cheers :good:

BTT
 
Bignose - if it is 0.25 ppm and taking the worst case scenarios from your charts - that still 0.02 ppm toxic - which is the threshold in your article. So doesn't 0.25 still stand as a decent guideline?

Would also be pushed to tell the difference between 0 > 0.25 on most test kits anyway?
 
Bignose - if it is 0.25 ppm and taking the worst case scenarios from your charts - that still 0.02 ppm toxic - which is the threshold in your article. So doesn't 0.25 still stand as a decent guideline?

Would also be pushed to tell the difference between 0 > 0.25 on most test kits anyway?


You didn't read my article close enough. 0.02 ppm is the toxic level of ammonia, not total ammonia. Your test kit measures total ammonia, that is, the sum of ammonia and ammonium. You take your test kit reading, you take your pH and temperature reading, you find the % of ammonia that is in the total ammonia based on the pH and temperature charts I posted and find how much ammonia you have. If that ammonia concentration is above 0.02, then you are in trouble.

That's by just saying a reading of 0.25 ppm on your test is insufficient. If the water is really acidic, it may be just fine because most of that total ammonia will be ammonium. But the water was basic, that could be very deadly. It all depends on your temperature and pH. One single number is not accurate enough.

Let me give an analogous example. Say you are a baseball player and you hit the ball 360 feet. Is that a homerun? There just isn't enough information. Because it matters whether you hit it to center field (usually as deep as 400 feet) or down the lines (usually much shorter than center). It matters if you hit a towering high shot or a line drive because the height of walls are different at different parks. Etc.

Saying 0.25 ppm is the same in that it isn't enough information. The pH and temperature are both critical pieces that have to be added to the puzzle or else it cannot be answered. There are cases where 0.25 ppm is deadly and times when it is almost harmless. Just like there are times when a batter can hit a harmless 360 foot fly ball or it is a homerun. It depends.

In general, no single number is sufficient to describe what really happens in real life. Real life is very complicated, and most things are very non-linear and complex. Sometimes these can be reduced to single numbers, or single rules ("one inch per gallon"), but the reality is that such gross simplification usually grossly inaccurate in a great deal of the cases. This is one of those cases where simplfying to just a single number just doesn't work.
 
Thanks for the explanation - I suppose where I'm coming from is that when you start the hobby you can quickly get blown away with information. I often try to break things back down to basics as much as possible so as not to get too wrapped up in things that can cause a bigger problem down the line.
My take on the ammonia / nitrite has simply been if there is any reading for ammonia - then there is a problem and you need to take action.

Another example would be pH levels - my water is particularly alkaline and I spent a great deal of time reading up on pH buffers / RO water etc. Whilst this might be an area I will look into again down the line - starting out I think it is a bad idea trying to play around with pH levels in a new tank.
 

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