Sick Platys In New Tank

[cbearman]

I recently purchased a 20gal tank for my 7yr old Son with two platys to get it started.
 
If i'd found out about fishless cycling before I bought the fish, would have gone that route - live and learn for next time. So the tank is still cycling (no sign of nitrite or nitrate yet). I am however testing the water frequently and doing regular 25% changes. Tank has been up and running for 25 days at this point.
 
Unfortunately both of the fish are definitely in bad shape at the moment (symptoms started about 3 days ago). One of them was always substantially less active than the other from day 1.
 
Symptoms: Lethargy, mostly remaining at surface (mouth to the surface). Sometimes stationary resting on a handy surface (such as wedged on the suction cup that holds my thermometer). Have seen white stringy poop strands attached to the fish several times over the last couple of days. No other obvious (to a beginner) signs of disease.
 
Have been doing 25% water changes weekly (new water treated with Prime), did an additional water change today (~40%) to see if this would help - no sign of improvement in the 8 hours or so since I did this.
 
Looking for any guidance or suggestions as to what might be going on suggestions on how to improve things.

Here are my current test results (API Master Test + strips for hardness):
 
Tank size: 20 US gal
pH: 7.9
ammonia: 0.75 -> 1.0 (Tests at 0.5 out of the faucet due to chloramine - treated with prime of course)
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0
kH: 80
gH: 160
tank temp: 76.5
 
 
 

 

[hudsona85]

At this point, there isnt much you can do since the fish are already showing signs of dying. Seeing as the ammonia is pretty high and considered deadly above .25ish. I at least would do 50-75% and continue watching the ammonia. Seems like there isn't enough bacteria to get the ammonia down. This is a website that will hopefully help in your process.
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433769-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i/
 
And
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/
 
I would also suggest getting a bacteria supplement at this point to counter balance and get the ammonia down. SeaChem Stability or Dr. Tims One and Only works pretty well. There is also the feeding portion. Over feeding will contribute to the rise of ammonia. There is of course the other alternative... If the fish do not make it, you could do the fish-less cycle then...
 
Is the water hardness 80ppm or 80dh? 80ppm would indicate soft water and 80dh would indicate very hard water.

 

[cbearman]

Adam,
 
Thanks for your information. I will definitely read the posts you have referred to.
 
I have some Seachem Stability - had been 50/50 on whether to try it based on reviews of bacteria supplements, but I guess it is worth a try.
 
The gH and kH readings are ppm - the water here is relatively hard.
 
As for the ammonia levels, I admit to some confusion over the exact role of Ammonia (NH3) and Ammonium (NH4+) in the process, and have some doubts whether this is in fact the primary factor at work here.
 
The municipal water that I am using is treated with Chloramines. The NH3/NH4+ combined reading that I get from water direct from the supply (API master test) is indistinguishable from the reading I get from the tank. My interpretation (right or wrong) is that:
 
1. Municipal water contains chloramines, reads approx 0.75 NH3/NH4+ on the API test.
2. Treat new water with prime (1ml/10gal). This eliminates the chlorine component of the chloramine, leaving NH3 which the prime converts or binds up to NH4+ which still reads on the test but is less toxic (or non toxic?) to the fish.
 
Not sure whether I should re-dose tank with prime in addition to use during water changes since i've read that the bound up NH4+ might revert to NH3, particularly at higher pH levels.
 
I did invest in the Seachem free and total ammonia test kit (you can test for NH3 and NH3/NH4+ combined). This gives me a near zero reading for NH3, apparently confirming that the reading I get with the API test kit consists mostly of NH4+.
 
Maybe I am misinformed or misinterpreting the toxicity of NH4+. 
 
Although I am certainly willing to believe that the symptoms I am seeing are ammonia related, the fact that the tank level is indistinguishable from the source water level, plus the rapid onset of symptoms that I have seen makes me consider other possibilities as well.

 

[AmtotheBurr]

I concur that the ammonia is a problem. The staying at the surface and lethargy are symptoms of ammonia poisoning. Symptoms can take time to show or sometimes come on suddenly so the rapid onset of symptoms you're seeing isn't contradictory to ammonia issues.
At this point, I agree with Adam on big water changes, way more than 25%.
I hope they pull through!

 

[cbearman]

I guess if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
 
Did a 50% water change yesterday (double prime dose to hopefully re-neutralize the remaining 50% of the water in the tank).  The fish seem to be improved this morning, one significantly so, the other less so.
 
Did another 50% change today.
 
The recommendations of my LFS were to do 25% water changes weekly. This is clearly not sufficient. The muni water has 1ppm ammonia from chloramines. I read that Prime only binds the ammonia into harmless form for 24-48 hours. So at this point not entirely sure the best way to continue. The options i'm currently considering:
 
Option 1
----------
50% water change with prime every 2 days, 1.5->2.0x normal prime dosing.
 
Option 2
----------
re-dose tank with prime (2ml for 20gal) every 2 days, with weekly 50% water changes.
 
 
Option 1 seems to be the best choice to me at the moment. Any opinions or other suggestions would be welcomed.
 
And once again, thanks.