Running Before Walking

[foxie]

now, i'm about as newbie as newbies come. and all i know so far, i owe to couple of weeks research from a few books but mostly down to the internet and various forums. what's upset me was when i visited my local fish shops; most were unable to answer any questions i had, seemed uninterested in helping me and left me with a slightly jaded oppinion of my local shops. obviously i'm not expecting much from the guys at Petsmart or other large "non-specialist" shops, but one of my local Aquatic centres gave me seemingly poor advice on substrates and the 3 staff i've spoken to so far didn't know what fishless cycling was either. Surprisingly the best service i've had so far was from Jollye's in MiltonKeynes (i didn't even know they did fish), where the guy that helped me seemed like a real enthusiast and very knowledgable (i can usually tell when someone's blagging it!).

I have no doubt that there are great independent shops out there, and i'm certain there are knowledgable staff somewhere too. they just must all be on their fag break when i visit.

i've worked in a competive area of retail (bicycle trade), and the main reason we were successful was customer service, and critically it came down to the staff we employed. I just got thinking, is there a living to be made from the fish trade? surely there's a gap in the market for a customer service led approach? From my limited personal experience and the feeling i get from forums, it looks like there are many people that feel the same way i do. I don't believe for a second that i have anywhere near the level of knowlege required to do this... yet. in the age of the internet you its nigh-on impossible to stay ahead of end consumers in terms of knowledge. its easy to find the answer to any question if you can be bothered to look, and afterall we have nothing better to do than read forums all day, right?! but if there was somewhere you could rely on for all the "right" answers, PROPER customer service and decent stock would you pay a premium for that, or you would you all use mailorder and ebay for the best prices?

just thinking out loud really but any comments welcomed. i should really go to bed.

 

[yvez9]

they just must all be on their fag break when i visit.

That made me laugh out loud!!! Ah... different culture = different slang!

now, i'm about as newbie as newbies come. and all i know so far, i owe to couple of weeks research from a few books but mostly down to the internet and various forums. what's upset me was when i visited my local fish shops; most were unable to answer any questions i had, seemed uninterested in helping me and left me with a slightly jaded oppinion of my local shops. obviously i'm not expecting much from the guys at Petsmart or other large "non-specialist" shops, but one of my local Aquatic centres gave me seemingly poor advice on substrates and the 3 staff i've spoken to so far didn't know what fishless cycling was either. Surprisingly the best service i've had so far was from Jollye's in MiltonKeynes (i didn't even know they did fish), where the guy that helped me seemed like a real enthusiast and very knowledgable (i can usually tell when someone's blagging it!).

I have no doubt that there are great independent shops out there, and i'm certain there are knowledgable staff somewhere too. they just must all be on their fag break when i visit.

i've worked in a competive area of retail (bicycle trade), and the main reason we were successful was customer service, and critically it came down to the staff we employed. I just got thinking, is there a living to be made from the fish trade? surely there's a gap in the market for a customer service led approach? From my limited personal experience and the feeling i get from forums, it looks like there are many people that feel the same way i do. I don't believe for a second that i have anywhere near the level of knowlege required to do this... yet. in the age of the internet you its nigh-on impossible to stay ahead of end consumers in terms of knowledge. its easy to find the answer to any question if you can be bothered to look, and afterall we have nothing better to do than read forums all day, right?! but if there was somewhere you could rely on for all the "right" answers, PROPER customer service and decent stock would you pay a premium for that, or you would you all use mailorder and ebay for the best prices?

just thinking out loud really but any comments welcomed. i should really go to bed.

The problem with fish is most fish cost nothing more then a few pennies and people have already made up their mind on what is good for them. Knowledgeable staff get turned down is they try to explain a goldfish will be unhappy in a bowl. They've had their parents keep em in bowls and they lived for 10 years.....

When people are gonna dish out a week's paycheck to buy a new bicycle, they'll make sure they get the most out of their money

It's sad really people think of fish as consumables really but people are like that. A minority will believe what knowledgeable staff will tell them even if it goes against what they know. People are usually stubborn about things they know when they walk up to a teenager in a pet store

 

[Lynden]

The problem with fish is most fish cost nothing more then a few pennies and people have already made up their mind on what is good for them. Knowledgeable staff get turned down is they try to explain a goldfish will be unhappy in a bowl. They've had their parents keep em in bowls and they lived for 10 years.....

When people are gonna dish out a week's paycheck to buy a new bicycle, they'll make sure they get the most out of their money

It's sad really people think of fish as consumables really but people are like that. A minority will believe what knowledgeable staff will tell them even if it goes against what they know. People are usually stubborn about things they know when they walk up to a teenager in a pet store

I agree with this. Very, very sad thing really

A living thing is a living thing, whether it has two legs, four legs, fur, fins, leaves, claws, cilia, tentacles, ect.
It's a shame that they aren't all treated the same.

-Lynden

 

[Inchworm]

I have no doubt that there are great independent shops out there, and i'm certain there are knowledgable staff somewhere too. they just must all be on their fag break when i visit.

i've worked in a competive area of retail (bicycle trade), and the main reason we were successful was customer service, and critically it came down to the staff we employed. I just got thinking, is there a living to be made from the fish trade? surely there's a gap in the market for a customer service led approach?

Hi foxie

I suspect that the problem with some of the customer service issues, especially with the independent stores, is simply a lack of time to spend talking to people. Running a fish shop takes an awful lot of hard work in addition to educating customers.

Look at all the different brands of any product that must be unpacked, priced and stocked. Every kind of store does this, but the employees at an lfs must also maintain the tanks and fish, clean live food, unpack and acclimatize new fish arrivals, etc.

I would think that finding reliable employees, who will not only work for not-very-high wages, AND who have experience keeping fish AND who can explain the basic principles of a science based undertaking to complete newbies without taking more than just a few minutes away from all the other work they're responsible for, must be a difficult thing to do. Add to that the fact that there are so many different kinds of fish that could be for sale, and you can surely see why it would be hard for even the most well meaning store owner to give his customers the degree of service he would like to provide.

 

[foxie]

I have no doubt that there are great independent shops out there, and i'm certain there are knowledgable staff somewhere too. they just must all be on their fag break when i visit.

i've worked in a competive area of retail (bicycle trade), and the main reason we were successful was customer service, and critically it came down to the staff we employed. I just got thinking, is there a living to be made from the fish trade? surely there's a gap in the market for a customer service led approach?

Hi foxie

I suspect that the problem with some of the customer service issues, especially with the independent stores, is simply a lack of time to spend talking to people. Running a fish shop takes an awful lot of hard work in addition to educating customers.

Look at all the different brands of any product that must be unpacked, priced and stocked. Every kind of store does this, but the employees at an lfs must also maintain the tanks and fish, clean live food, unpack and acclimatize new fish arrivals, etc.

I would think that finding reliable employees, who will not only work for not-very-high wages, AND who have experience keeping fish AND who can explain the basic principles of a science based undertaking to complete newbies without taking more than just a few minutes away from all the other work they're responsible for, must be a difficult thing to do. Add to that the fact that there are so many different kinds of fish that could be for sale, and you can surely see why it would be hard for even the most well meaning store owner to give his customers the degree of service he would like to provide.

I understand what you're saying about the costs of good staff, and i totally agree with the problems of educating consumers. But when you do take the time to do this, it can pay off big time. First impressions are vital, and the first impressions that i've had from 4 shops so far have not been good. I'm reluctant to visit them again. I realise that there is probably little or no margin in the fish themselves (unless you're successfully breeding a lot yourself), i would have thought any profit comes from food, chemicals, equipment etc. which is obviously why some shops frequently miss-sell stuff. I'm not naive as to the way to run a retail business, but i readily admit i know nothing about the fish trade. I can see why its incredibly difficult to specialise in every aspect of fish-keeping without huge premises and many enthusiastic, knowledgable staff, and of course a 30 hour day would help too. I think the way forward in retail is to be the best at a single thing. From my retail experience i've learnt people appreciate honesty, and if for example our shop couldn't help we would readily recommend a "competitor" that we knew was strong in that area. This nearly always paid off as I was always the first call if any of my customers needed parts, bikes or just advice.

I know comparing bicycle trade with fish trade is like comparing cars with eggs. But consumers don't vary too much.

I'm just at that point where i'm getting itchy feet in my current job. as retail is what i know, i'd like my own shop in a few years. first choice is bikeshop as i already have the knowledge, but there are too many good bike shops locally to make it viable. other option is going to uni (maybe marine biology) and then opening a fish shop. doubt any uni's will have me as i dropped out of school and only bagged myself 3 gcse's.

ain't life great. all these tough decisions!

 

[catxx]

a bikeshop would be cheaper to run, overheads wise, than a fish store.
with a bikeshop you don't have to worry about astronomical water bills and electricity bills from 40+ tanks running 24 hours a day, and rent of the store, and stock, and insurance, and. and. and....

the best way to make money is to do custom builds, commercial & domestic tank maintence, and display tanks for photoshoots/film etc.

i know the rent on my LFS, it's RIDICULOUS, they have a prime position in a very expensive area of London, its 70k a year

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Yeah it is sad but a lot of the problem is staffing as others have said.

I'm a bit sick of my job and wouldn't mind a change. Saw an advert in my lfs asking for employee's... now I know the manager, he knows I know my stuff and I'd work hard and be an asset to the shop..... I'd even take a bit of a pay cut to work there and I'm not on a high wage now by any stretch of the imagination..... it wouldn't even be half my wages literally no way I could afford the mortgage on a 1 bedroom terrace on those wages

so offering that sort of money your never gonna get a large body of knowledgeable staff, you'll get the odd few but most will be teenagers with sat jobs there.

 

[mr.dark-saint]

When I did retail on the fish slinging business I mostly filled the peoples brains than their bags with junk they didn't need. My district manager didn't like me for that since he had that "UP-Sales" like a guy asking "would you like fries with that?" . But in my case it'll be "would you like a Jack Dempsey with your Neon Tetras?" (so the store will get repeate customers after all they'll need to repolace the Neons) . Or rig them with a Magnum 350 for their 20 gallon tank. It was just bottom line of cash money. Some days (when dude was there) I felt like a used car salesman.

The thing is when hobbiests go work at a LFS you get a good service all around (except prices) after all they need to feed their kids. As for "Pets in a Box" (yeah I worked in one ) most people are there for the cash with the mentality "I can't wait to quit this job". So, when I do go a shoppin' I know what I want by doing the homework. Looking over the tanks to make sure they aren't sick (most "PIAB" are on a single system so if one tank is down all will be ) I just look but not buy. Then there are the Mom and Pop places where the tanks are cruddy looking but they have the "Good Stuff" . These are usually run by a hobbiest who took out a loan and exploded. Then there are Mom and Pop places that's just waiting to close because the "PIAB" down the ways is killing them .

Ideally what one wants to find is a place run by an indipendently wealthy hobbiest who needs a place to breed or use the shop as his lab. If a customer comes and buys great, if no one comes even better (less distractions). Just running the place as a tax shelter. My dream. I'd run it like the episode of Seinfeld "Soup Nazi" with me yelling "No fish for you"!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

i'd be the worst fish salesman ever, i'd just refuse to sell 90% of customers what they'd want, never make any money

 

[JSmails]

Im based in Oz and although I knew nothing about tropical fish I did loads of research to find the best stockist in my city. I went there with the knowledge that they were the 'best'. Initially they were very helpful but then every time i turned up with a question or a problem id come away having bought lots of uneccessary stuff. Since I have found a smaller shop from whom I have spent little but learnt much. I also found I had previously been given some terrible advice. You learn from your mistakes unfortunatley, and the best place for advice is these forums cos at the end of the day the sad thing is these shops have to make a profit to stay alive.

 

[Shepdog]

I have been in three retail shops in the last few days and asked an identical question. 'How often should I feed my fish?' Answer's. 1. 'Three times a day'. 2. 'Once a day.' 3. 'Only once a week.'

 

[ox5477]

i'd be the worst fish salesman ever, i'd just refuse to sell 90% of customers what they'd want, never make any money

I agree. So many people would come in and just be like, "give me three of those, two of these and 4 of those." and then I'd go off on a rant saying, "if you put 3 of these together, then they'll kill eachother. and the two of these will kill everything else in the tank." The person would look at me as if they were thinking, "Do you think you can tell me what to do? we live in freedom and I can buy whatever fish I want and keep them in a 1 gallon bowl if I want because I am free." Thats when I punch them in the face and tell them to leave. Children would be crying, blood and teeth would be everywhere on the floor and I wouldn't make any money....not a good situation

 

[catxx]

hahaha Ox, i think i'd be the same! smash a fake nemo bubbler into their face and tell them to get the hell out, 4 goldfish in a 1 gallon? go away!
in fact, i wouldn't even stock goldfish. or "nemos".

 

[Medionsaturn]

i'd be the worst fish salesman ever, i'd just refuse to sell 90% of customers what they'd want, never make any money

I agree. So many people would come in and just be like, "give me three of those, two of these and 4 of those." and then I'd go off on a rant saying, "if you put 3 of these together, then they'll kill eachother. and the two of these will kill everything else in the tank." The person would look at me as if they were thinking, "Do you think you can tell me what to do? we live in freedom and I can buy whatever fish I want and keep them in a 1 gallon bowl if I want because I am free." Thats when I punch them in the face and tell them to leave. Children would be crying, blood and teeth would be everywhere on the floor and I wouldn't make any money....not a good situation

LMAO!


That's one of the funniest thing's I've read all month, kudos to you.


Anyway, I'm planning once I turn 16(or maybe 18 if they only want those over 18), to get one of my first job's at a Fish Shop, preferably not Pets at Home, if not then I'll probably end up at the local Londis. But my point is I'm beginning to worry from these posts that they won't want sensible aquarists like me who would most likely refuse giving a customer 2 Dwarf Puffers and a Betta for their 6g bowl. Maybe when I get that OATA Expert Fishkeeper degree that'll persuade them.

 

[Fella]

now, i'm about as newbie as newbies come. and all i know so far, i owe to couple of weeks research from a few books but mostly down to the internet and various forums. what's upset me was when i visited my local fish shops; most were unable to answer any questions i had, seemed uninterested in helping me and left me with a slightly jaded oppinion of my local shops. obviously i'm not expecting much from the guys at Petsmart or other large "non-specialist" shops, but one of my local Aquatic centres gave me seemingly poor advice on substrates and the 3 staff i've spoken to so far didn't know what fishless cycling was either. Surprisingly the best service i've had so far was from Jollye's in MiltonKeynes (i didn't even know they did fish), where the guy that helped me seemed like a real enthusiast and very knowledgable (i can usually tell when someone's blagging it!).

I have no doubt that there are great independent shops out there, and i'm certain there are knowledgable staff somewhere too. they just must all be on their fag break when i visit.

i've worked in a competive area of retail (bicycle trade), and the main reason we were successful was customer service, and critically it came down to the staff we employed. I just got thinking, is there a living to be made from the fish trade? surely there's a gap in the market for a customer service led approach? From my limited personal experience and the feeling i get from forums, it looks like there are many people that feel the same way i do. I don't believe for a second that i have anywhere near the level of knowlege required to do this... yet. in the age of the internet you its nigh-on impossible to stay ahead of end consumers in terms of knowledge. its easy to find the answer to any question if you can be bothered to look, and afterall we have nothing better to do than read forums all day, right?! but if there was somewhere you could rely on for all the "right" answers, PROPER customer service and decent stock would you pay a premium for that, or you would you all use mailorder and ebay for the best prices?

just thinking out loud really but any comments welcomed. i should really go to bed.

You're from Buckingham? I went to school there. Do you work at Buckingham Bikes?

In Bucks the best place to go is Woburn Sands. They have a maidenhead aquatics and across the road is another store. i'm not sure about the advice given, but they're the best stores I used by miles. Avoid at all costs the garden center opposite xscape, to this day it's one of the least ethical fish stores I've ever seen, stocking RTC's and claiming them as "small catfish".

I agree entirely with what you're saying with regards to customer service, which is why I buy the majority of my fish from wharf aquatics in Nottingham (where I currently live...). The advice there is great, and the owner, Wayne, confesses that the prices may be higher, but thats because he employs knowledgable people above minimum wage to get the best customer service he can, which to me, is well worth the extra pennies.