Quick Question About Meds And Water Changes.

[LolaLouie]

Hi just a quicky,

Am currently treating my tank for mouth fungus with protozin.

Just tested my water and nitrites are a little high (50-100) at this point I would normally water change. Today is my last day of meds for the next 3 days.

Can you water change while using meds?

If not how long do you have to wait after treating the tank?


Thanks

 

[TribeOfShroom]

With protozin, as you know, you dose days 1,2,3 &6. I usually don't do any water changes until day 8 or 9. But when I do, it's a 40%-50% with de-chlorinated, exact temperature/ph etc and I do it slowly as to not cause any distress to the recovering fish.

*EDIT* I have two 40L demi's lying about for this exact thing, so this option may not be viable unless you have some big water containers.

 

[LolaLouie]

Hi, thanks for your reply,

Just a couple of questions...

What do you mean "do it slowly"?

Does it matter if my nitrates get high over the next 5 days?

Thanks again!

 

[backtotropical]

Hi,

If you perform a water change whilst using meds, the medication will be diluted. I would usually advise against it.

However, if your nitrates are creeping up (50-100 is quite high), i would maybe suggest doing a 50% water change to keep nitrates down for the rest of the duration of the medication. When adding your freshwater, add a half dose of protozin to it (ie. 1/4 of the dose you have been adding to your whole tank). This will prevent the water change from diluting the medication too much. Then wait a few hours and add today's dose.

The other option is to leave the water change until after the medication. The last dose of medication is on day 6, and i would usually do a large water change on day 8 to remove the meds from the tank. Nitrates of up to 100ppm shouldn't harm most fish, although above this it can start to have negative effects.

How did nitrates get so high? It would suggest to me that your water changes need to be more frequent, unless your tap water has a similar nitrate concentration, in which case theres not much you can do short of buying a de-ioniser or an RO system.

Can you notice the protozin working yet? You would usually see it working in the first couple of days.

Good luck with it.

BTT

 

[TribeOfShroom]

Hi, thanks for your reply,

Just a couple of questions...

What do you mean "do it slowly"?

Does it matter if my nitrates get high over the next 5 days?

Thanks again!

I have the demi's higher than the tank and then using thin gauge hose, I syphon the water into the tank. I've known ppl to kill fish through stress by 'gently' pouring water into their tanks.

The demi set up is usually a 200W heater to keep the temp correct (after standing for 48hrs and getting the PH to the same lvl as the tank) and an air stone (don't know why I put an air stone in there, I just have some vague memory of reading somewhere that it helped when adjusting the ph)

*EDIT* a thin bit of filter foam, wedged into the end of the syphon pipe an also slow the rate down, but don't make it too dense otherwise it won't work.

 

[xxBarneyxx]

If its nitrItes then yes do a large water change right away. I'm assuming it isn't or your fish would already be dead

If its nitrAtes then dont worry about it 50-100ppm will be fine for a short while (and some would argue have zero effect on most fw fish long term as well). Finish off the course of medication and then do a large water change. Some medications can effect test kits also so it might not even be that high.

edit (should read other people s replys first ):

Leaving water to stand will not mean it has the same PH as the water in the tank. It will stablise the CO2 levels in it which means that the PH wont rapidly change as the CO2 stabilise but it can still be very different to what is in your tank.

Personally I wouldn't bother heating it up, making sure the PH, etc is the same. Just to a few smaller water changes over the course of a couple of days. More gentle change (if there is any) in water parameters for the fish and less hassle for you.

I agree with BTT and would investigate why your nitrates are that high. If you dont do regular water changes you will most likely want to start doing weekly 10-20% water changes.

If you do regular water changes and your tap water has high nitrates then you might want to look at RO water but this is more hassle then its worth for most people unless you have extreamly sensitive fish.

If you dont have high nitrate in your taps and do regular water changes then check how much you are feeding, if all the food is getting eaten quickly.

If all of that is fine then just wait till the medication has finished, do a few water changes and keep a watch on it.

Like I said a lot of people will argue that most FW fish are perfectly fine in water with high nitrate. I have only seen the research done on a few cold water species which show that nitrate upto 150ppm has no negitive effect but I'm sure someone awhile back posted information about research that was done on tropical fish (probably bignose or Tom Barr).

 

[LolaLouie]

I didn't think nitrates of 50-100 was that high! I do water changes about 10-20% once to twice a week, but didn't think before I put the meds in so it has now actually been probably 10 days since my last water change!

I guess I will leave the tank for now and give them a big water change on day 8.

My nitrates never really get above 20 so maybe as Barney said the meds are effecting the readings?!?

As for whether the meds are working... well I used the meds as one of my pentazona barbs had what looked like a tiny patch of fungus on his mouth, all the other fish seemed fine but I don't have a hospital tank to treat the 1 fish and thought it was better to ensure the others don't catch it. Anyway there appears to be no difference in the fungus on the barb's mouth. Is this not normal then? should the fungus of gone by now??

Thanks again for your great advice!

 

[backtotropical]

Anyway there appears to be no difference in the fungus on the barb's mouth. Is this not normal then? should the fungus of gone by now??

Not necessarily. Each case is different as you will imagine. So long as the fungus is not getting worse, i'd call it progress. You should see it start to disappear in the next couple of days though.

If your nitrates never usually go above 20ppm, it's probably the meds affecting your test, so i think you are correct to leave the water change until day 8. That way it will get rid of your meds and nitrates in one go.

Also, I agree with Barney. Leaving your water standing will not equalise the PH to that of the tank water. All it will do is equalise the temperature to that of the room, which can be useful but is not necessary.

I also don't agree that slowly pouring water into the tank will stress the fish. Tribe of Shroom, whoever told you that, i am certain that their fish died for some other reason. Most fish actually like the current and the cooler water, and it will actually encourage breeding in some species, for example, Corydoras.

Cheers

BTT

 

[fry_lover]

if its nitrates, dont worry about it right now, its the least of your problems. Ignore it and carry on the treatment, dont water change whilst treating unless a problem with ammonia or nitrite

And anyway, 50-100 Nitrates if keeping barbs is nothing really, and most nitrate test kits are very unreliable in the first place, if you can bring it down after the treatment, by all means.

 

[TribeOfShroom]

Anyway there appears to be no difference in the fungus on the barb's mouth. Is this not normal then? should the fungus of gone by now??

Not necessarily. Each case is different as you will imagine. So long as the fungus is not getting worse, i'd call it progress. You should see it start to disappear in the next couple of days though.

If your nitrates never usually go above 20ppm, it's probably the meds affecting your test, so i think you are correct to leave the water change until day 8. That way it will get rid of your meds and nitrates in one go.

Also, I agree with Barney. Leaving your water standing will not equalise the PH to that of the tank water. All it will do is equalise the temperature to that of the room, which can be useful but is not necessary.

I also don't agree that slowly pouring water into the tank will stress the fish. Tribe of Shroom, whoever told you that, i am certain that their fish died for some other reason. Most fish actually like the current and the cooler water, and it will actually encourage breeding in some species, for example, Corydoras.

Cheers

BTT

Considering that they were pouring water from a bucket into a tank, I'm not surprised that they killed their fish. If I remember correctly they only had a small tank (40L I think). It is true that fish like current, but when I first set up my 125L, even 'gently' pouring water in from a bucket created a large amount of pressure that would pin debris under where I was pouring. I would think if this happened to a fish, they would find this quite stressful.

Now in response to Barney's reply. I do not leave the water to stand to stabilize my ph. I use PH down to get the standing water down to the desired PH before adding it to the tank, I leave it to stand so that any chlorine etc that has not been neutralized by the aqua safe has a chance to leave to the water before I add it to the tank.

Now I'm not too sure about your bedrooms, but mine is usually about 21 - 23 degrees C. Adding water of this temp to a tank of 27 degree's is not desirable, as you are aware that this would shock the fish.

Maybe I should have been a bit more clearer with my original response and I apologise if this is the case.

 

[backtotropical]

Considering that they were pouring water from a bucket into a tank, I'm not surprised that they killed their fish. If I remember correctly they only had a small tank (40L I think). It is true that fish like current, but when I first set up my 125L, even 'gently' pouring water in from a bucket created a large amount of pressure that would pin debris under where I was pouring. I would think if this happened to a fish, they would find this quite stressful.

Now in response to Barney's reply. I do not leave the water to stand to stabilize my ph. I use PH down to get the standing water down to the desired PH before adding it to the tank, I leave it to stand so that any chlorine etc that has not been neutralized by the aqua safe has a chance to leave to the water before I add it to the tank.

Now I'm not too sure about your bedrooms, but mine is usually about 21 - 23 degrees C. Adding water of this temp to a tank of 27 degree's is not desirable, as you are aware that this would shock the fish.

Maybe I should have been a bit more clearer with my original response and I apologise if this is the case.

I pour water from buckets into my tanks all the time and have done so for around 8 years and have never stressed a fish by doing so, let alone kill one. As I said above, most fish actually like it and will sometimes even play in the flow of cooler water.

I would advise you against using PH down in your tank as, although it does have the desired effect of reducing the PH, it will only last a short while and you are likely to suffer PH fluctuations as a result. Most fish will adapt to a high PH with no problem. Keeping the PH stable is far more important than attaining the correct value. PH down is a waste of money IMO as it is unnecessary, and probably causes more problems in your tank than it solves.

If you really want to lower your PH, there are more reliable ways of doing so, for example bogwood or a peat filter or mixing tap water with RO water. All of these methods would have the same effect on the PH as PH Down, but would hold the Ph more stable, which is the most important point.

Also, the difference in temperature is very unlikely to shock the fish. Even with an extreme scenario, say you do a 50% water change, your room is 21 degrees and your tank is 27 degrees. This will bring the temp of your tank water to around 24 degrees, a drop of 3 degrees. As I said above, most fish will actually like the cooler water and it can encourage them to spawn. Almost all fish would experience temperature fluctuations of more than 3 degrees in their natural habitat. I am not disputing that temperature shock can occur, but merely saying that it would take a much larger fluctuation than would occur in your tank through doing a routine water change.

 

[LolaLouie]

Ha ha, I don't know how this thread has suddenly become about pH changes!! My pH is reasonably high (8) but I just leave it as it is and my fish seem happy with it! As for the bucket thing I pour water really slowly in with a bucket which has a grove so you can control the flow. None of my fish seem to mind at all and I pour so slowly that it doesn't disturb any of the plants or gravel.

Also I use kettle water to adjust the temp. (someone on this forum recommended that to me). maybe the bucket thing isn't such a big deal if you are only changing 10% of water rather than 25-30% as many people do.

 

[xxBarneyxx]

BTT already said everything I was going to say

I personally wouldn't pour in water from a bucket (mainly through fear of dropping it on the tank) but if it was done carefully it wouldnt be a problem. I fill up the tank from a hose with cold water and have no problems with the lower temperature of the water or the pressure from the hose.

I always used to warm the water up to the same temperature as the tank but after Andywg pointed out how uselss it was for most FW I gave it a try and haven't gone back since (about 8 months on now and my fish are still spawning and producing fry). My cold water is REALLY cold as well.

PH down/PH up are a nightmare to use as BTT said and can cause your PH to jump around all over the place.

 

[pirate monkey]

I did a 50% change after treating with protazin and the next day my 5 cardinal tetras were dead. over the next few days all but two of my fish died. I had warmed the water but hadn't checked the temp on a thermometer so there was almost certainly a difference of a few degrees, and apparently that is what killed my fish. I would just be careful especially if you have some sensitive fish. I now get the water to exactly the same temperature as the tank before adding it. I would suggest if you need to do a 50% change, do it over a few days. I guess it's just a case of whatever works for your fish!

 

[TribeOfShroom]

Considering that they were pouring water from a bucket into a tank, I'm not surprised that they killed their fish. If I remember correctly they only had a small tank (40L I think). It is true that fish like current, but when I first set up my 125L, even 'gently' pouring water in from a bucket created a large amount of pressure that would pin debris under where I was pouring. I would think if this happened to a fish, they would find this quite stressful.

Now in response to Barney's reply. I do not leave the water to stand to stabilize my ph. I use PH down to get the standing water down to the desired PH before adding it to the tank, I leave it to stand so that any chlorine etc that has not been neutralized by the aqua safe has a chance to leave to the water before I add it to the tank.

Now I'm not too sure about your bedrooms, but mine is usually about 21 - 23 degrees C. Adding water of this temp to a tank of 27 degree's is not desirable, as you are aware that this would shock the fish.

Maybe I should have been a bit more clearer with my original response and I apologise if this is the case.

I pour water from buckets into my tanks all the time and have done so for around 8 years and have never stressed a fish by doing so, let alone kill one. As I said above, most fish actually like it and will sometimes even play in the flow of cooler water.

I would advise you against using PH down in your tank as, although it does have the desired effect of reducing the PH, it will only last a short while and you are likely to suffer PH fluctuations as a result. Most fish will adapt to a high PH with no problem. Keeping the PH stable is far more important than attaining the correct value. PH down is a waste of money IMO as it is unnecessary, and probably causes more problems in your tank than it solves.

If you really want to lower your PH, there are more reliable ways of doing so, for example bogwood or a peat filter or mixing tap water with RO water. All of these methods would have the same effect on the PH as PH Down, but would hold the Ph more stable, which is the most important point.

Also, the difference in temperature is very unlikely to shock the fish. Even with an extreme scenario, say you do a 50% water change, your room is 21 degrees and your tank is 27 degrees. This will bring the temp of your tank water to around 24 degrees, a drop of 3 degrees. As I said above, most fish will actually like the cooler water and it can encourage them to spawn. Almost all fish would experience temperature fluctuations of more than 3 degrees in their natural habitat. I am not disputing that temperature shock can occur, but merely saying that it would take a much larger fluctuation than would occur in your tank through doing a routine water change.

Thankyou for you advice, but considering I've been using ph down in the water I prepare before it goes into the tank for quite some time now and haven't had a ph swing at all. I think it's fine to use. Now I'm not disputing that it can causes problems, But I personally haven't come across any using it. In regards to the bogwood, if you have a look at my tank (see "My 125L" post) you will see have a lot of bogwood, but the bogwood only adjusts the PH of my tap water by about 0.2.

I understand that stable PH is more important than perfect ph. But if you can do both, why not? I have considered the peat option, but haven't yet found suitable information on where to get it/ how much etc. If you wish to point me in the right direction, I'd be more than happy to do my research as I prefer to use natural products aposed to chemicals

As for fish liking cooler water. I know this is particularly true for corydoras, as it triggers breeding behaviour and yes fish out in the wild do experience temperature changes. But seeing as all my fish are store bred (well at least I think they are, I can't imagine any of them actually being wild fish) they don't, and possibly have never experienced daily fluctuations as experienced in the wild. Therefore it would be wise not to subject them to it. Not to say they can't handle it and I would agree with you Tropical, that it would take a larger temp fluctuation to cause shock (if the fish were already use to small fluctuations).

I appreciate the advice, but prefer if my fish don't experience any change that could stress them.. obviously not including planting and re arranging the tank Maybe I'm a bit paranoid about my tank going tit's up But it's better to be safe, than sorry.

Sorry Lola for some what hijacking your thread.