Question

[Lynden]

Normally I do not visit the 'Bettas' forum. Call me stupid, but I am going to take a whack at instilling a new idea into fishkeeping.


3 fish are pictured below. All are small, slow-moving, and can breathe air.

3'' Polypterus ornatipinnis

2'' Colisa lalia

3'' Channa sp.

Would you keep these animals in a 1 gallon bowl?

No way, right? It's totally unnacceptable.

So why, then, is it any more acceptable to keep a 3'' Betta splendens (who is small, slow-moving, and can breathe air, just like the others) in a tiny tank?

It isn't!

So why is it done? It's even recommended! Frankly, it's a criminal practice. People nearly puke at pictures of "jar cats" or "cat houses", and nobody would think of keeping a German Shepherd in an 8' by 8' room for it's entire life. It's cruel to keep animals in tiny quarters.

Sure, maybe Bettas do inhabit rice paddies in the wild, but even in a rice paddy, they have an area far, far greater than any fish bowl could give them. Clearly, people that use this excuse to try to justify themselves do not know what rice paddies are.

Animals can't actually die of boredom, but some poor Bettas must come pretty damn close. I have also seen people use the "My Betta isn't bored; he blows bubblenests every day!". The fact that the Betta blows bubbles every day only proves how terribly bored they are. They have nothing else to do but sit and look pretty.

Let's try another question: What would you rather do? Your normal daily activities, or blow bubbles 24/7? Probably the former. But if you were placed in solitary confinement, say in a 12' by 12' plexiglass room, with nothing but a full bubble soap bottle and a bubble stick, what would you do? Absolutely nothing, or blow bubbles?

DON'T KEEP BETTAS IN TANKS LESS THAN 5 GALLONS!

-Lynden

 

[piatotsini]

I agree with you, bigger tanks are better (though nothing too exceptionally big). EDIT: Just noticed the "nothing less than 5 gallons" bit. I keep my betta in a 4 gallon, so I guess I have to disagree with you on that part after all. What I was trying to say was 1 gallon is the absolute bare minimum, but it would be better if you could go bigger.

HOWEVER...comparing the above mentioned fish with bettas is like comparing apples with oranges. True, they are labyrinth breathers, but their habits and temperament are not the same. Take betta channoides macrostoma, for example. Those are HUGE, petstore bettas will not grow anywhere near that size. The only other betta that is comparable to it in size (other than the other huge wild bettas) are the giant bettas (which is anywhere from 3 to 6 inches long, sometimes more). Emphasis on Giant.

Your intentions are noble, but the argument you present is weak.

 

[jollysue]

Would this be considered trolling?

At the very least it is lecturing and in poor taste. It is an opinion. It is not supported by any factual evidence. It is disingenuous. What credentials do you present, Lynden, to justify yelling at everyone who opens your thread? Shout on some other rooftop.

 

[RandomWiktor]

I personally do not condone keeping bettas in less than 5g long term, and I also disagree with the 1g minimum. I think that, as with all fish, people should go by no less than the inch per gallon minimum, which for a betta depending on the gender and variety would be between two to three and a half gallons minimum. This I do not think is unreasonable, and it does go by existing standards, rather than ones for bettas which largely seem to be made up with minimal factual basis aside from the fact that they survive in smaller.
However, I do not think that the way to spread the message on keeping bettas in larger tanks is by coming on this agressively. You started to make a good point about rice paddies, but there needed to be more info there, such as specific stats on the average betta territory size (which is much larger than a 1g bowl for sure). You could have expanded on issues like water quality, temperature stability, behavioral enrichment, etc. Instead, you chose to accuse and "yell" with large fonts, which is only going to offend - and thus win no one's favor.
You have made a good point, but the fashion in which you made it was inflammatory. In the future, you might want more evidence, a smaller font, and a less agressive tone.

((P.S. - Bettas are actually extremely active when provided with adequate space and temperatures. Only the ones bred to have freakishly huge, heavy finnage have trouble swimming and thus move slowly, which could be viewed as an ethical issue in and of itself.))

 

[33moths]

I agree it's in poor taste. Large text doesn't make you more convincing or more intelligent.

 

[Lynden]

I agree it's in poor taste. Large text doesn't make you more convincing or more intelligent.

Yeah, yeah, I get it. It's changed. It was sort of meant to be like an ad you would see, like in a magazine.

Would this be considered trolling?

At the very least it is lecturing and in poor taste. It is an opinion. It is not supported by any factual evidence. It is disingenuous. What credentials do you present, Lynden, to justify yelling at everyone who opens your thread? Shout on some other rooftop.

It is painfully obvious you are doing anything you can to avoid having to justify yourself. Problem is, I am concered about the Bettas' welfare, but you are concered with how many you can fit in a room. How sad.

-Lynden

 

[jollysue]

In actuality, I don't see the basis for comparing the domestic Betta splendens with the Betta in the wild???
If investigation on the care of domesticated Betta is to be done, it seems to me one would start with research on how they are cared for in Thailand historically.

The logic of comparing the needs of a German Shepherd with a domestic Betta escapes me. I might just as well say, "Would you keep your dog in a 50 gallon tank of water?" "Would you expect your cat to sleep on a the leaf of a silk plant?"

Ms. Kinky, as I have said before, is in a bowl of less than 1 usg. Am I guilty of abuse? She is not even an inch in length and not pudgy. She almost died in a filtered tank.

LOL Building bubble nests is a sexually charged activity. Do I think that males engaged in such activities are happy? lol Give me a break!

The logic of the boredom example is very like the logic used by indescriminate Betta breeders: Oh! my Betta will have so much fun breeding, and I will enjoy watching him!

No, Lynden, I was addressing your poor taste. I did not believe your post was worthy of a debate. The above response is out of respect for RW.

I do not believe that any of my Bettas (who are all less than two inches) need a five usg. I have kept my Bettas in larger tanks, but did not find that it was necessarily to their benefit. I agree with Synirr's observation that Betta feels the need to patrol his territory and may wear himself out in a large container.

Lynden, you have no basis for judging my motives. This topic that has advocates on both sides who are greatly respected, and you are not debating in good faith. You are hitting below the belt with unjustified accusations! Flaming is against the policies of TFF.

 

[Lynden]

In actuality, I don't see the basis for comparing the domestic Betta splendens with the Betta in the wild???
If investigation on the care of domesticated Betta is to be done, it seems to me one would start with research on how they are cared for in Thailand historically.

The logic of comparing the needs of a German Shepherd with a domestic Betta escapes me. I might just as well say, "Would you keep your dog in a 50 gallon tank of water?" "Would you expect your cat to sleep on a the leaf of a silk plant?"

Ms. Kinky, as I have said before, is in a bowl of less than 1 usg. Am I guilty of abuse? She is not even an inch in length and not pudgy. She almost died in a filtered tank.

LOL Building bubble nests is a sexually charged activity. Do I think that males engaged in such activities are happy? lol Give me a break!

The logic of the boredom example is very like the logic used by indescriminate Betta breeders: Oh! my Betta will have so much fun breeding, and I will enjoy watching him!

No, Lynden, I was addressing your poor taste. I did not believe your post was worthy of a debate. The above response is out of respect for RW.

I do not believe that any of my Bettas (who are all less than two inches) need a five usg. I have kept my Bettas in larger tanks, but did not find that it was necessarily to their benefit. I agree with Synirr's observation that Betta feels the need to patrol his terrotory and may wear himself out in a large container.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. And we call the human race advanced. Well, I guess most of us are, but some of us can't resist the urge to fill a room full of poor fish. How sad, how sad indeed.

I am not flaming anyone. I am merely saying that Bettas have a right to a larger tank.

-Lynden

 

[jollysue]

Again, you have made unjustified and libelous accusations against me. And you have not made your case.
Is that the best you can do? Grow up

 

[Lynden]

Again, you have made unjustified and libelous accusations against me. And you have not made your case.
Is that the best you can do? Grow up

Unfortunately, being 14, I have yet to grow up.

But apparently I am grown up enough to know how to treat animals.

I should not have to "make my case". Keeping a 2'' fish in a 1 gallon bowl is rediculous and cruel. The Siamese were fools to keep Bettas in tiny tanks, and apparently 800 years wasn't enough time for people to realize the mistakes they made. You have inherited their foolishness, as did Synirr and anyone else who keeps Bettas in 1 gallon bowls.

It's a shame too; other than the Betta part, I have a great amount of respect for Synirr. I have respect for you, too, Jollysue, but with your immature comments and lack of argument (or any other useful information) against me in your posts, you are losing it. But then again, you probably don't care at all.

-Lynden

 

[Synirr]

Take betta channoides, for example. Those are HUGE...

I hate to nitpick, but channoides actually only reach 2" or so. Fusca, raja, and macrostoma are all species that get larger though, among many others

Unfortunately, being 14, I have yet to grow up.

Pishposh, age is no excuse. There are plenty of young teens I know who are far more mature than most adults.

However, I gotta agree with jollysue, your comparisons border on fanatical, which discredits your argument. Ornate bichirs get 20". The snakehead you posted looks like one of the smaller species, but we're still looking at around 8"... no, as a matter of fact, I wouldn't keep a fish in a tank that's smaller in length than the fish's adult size . The gourami is a better example, but like fishkiller_nomore said, their habits and temperament are not the same; you have to evaluate your housing methods on a species-to-species basis.

Fact of the matter is, domestic splendens are nothing like you'd find in the wild, and while I'd never keep even my smallest of wild betta species in anything less than 10 gallons, that's what domestic splendens are bred for. 5 gallons is ideal, but I see nothing wrong with a 2.5 gallon (which actually conforms to a guideline used for housing larger fish, that the tank be at least 4x the fish's size in length and 2x its size in width), and I think a 1 gallon is the absolute bare minimum, say if you have a lot of breeding stock. I'm in the process of upgrading all my breeders and pets to 2.5 gallons, only 6 left to go! There's absolutely no way, though, that a breeder could manage to function housing their stock in 5 gallons... I have over 15 breeding fish that need to be housed separately, and I'm sorry, but 2.5 gallons is perfectly adequate and although it would make water changes a lot easier, there's no way each and every one of those fish is getting their own 5 gallon when they hardly use the room given them in their 2.5s. They are active fish, but they are not swimmers like danios or something like that, they simply don't need a lot of volume... mine spend 90% of their day picking at their decorations, flaring at neighbors, or begging me for food


EDIT: BTW, the "Siamese" are called the Thai nowadays

RE-EDIT: Perhaps you should get a betta? Then maybe you would see why the overwhelming majority here think it is ok to house them in less than 5 gallons.

 

[piatotsini]

Take betta channoides, for example. Those are HUGE...

I hate to nitpick, but channoides actually only reach 2" or so. Fusca, raja, and macrostoma are all species that get larger though, among many others

You're absolutely right! I was thinking macrostoma, but for some reason I typed in channoides...I think because I've read "channa". Weird word association Thanks for the correction!!!

 

[jollysue]

"Keeping a 2'' fish in a 1 gallon bowl is rediculous and cruel. The Siamese were fools to keep Bettas in tiny tanks, and apparently 800 years wasn't enough time for people to realize the mistakes they made. You have inherited their foolishness, as did Synirr and anyone else who keeps Bettas in 1 gallon bowls."


Just exactly where did I say that I keep 2" fish in one gallon bowls? I have one fish that is in a bowl. She has a kinked spine and cannot swim well. She is less than an inch in size. She was in a larger filtered tank but could not swim in the pull of the filter. I found her stuck to the bottom of an undergravel filtered tank unable to get up. I rushed to get her out and then went to find an acceptable home for her.

But in reality I do not need to justify my fish keeping to you. You have called me inhumane, foolish, immature and inferred other inflamitory accusations. The term inflamitory suggests flaming:

"You have inherited their foolishness" "your immature comments" "lack of argument (or any other useful information" "some of us can't resist the urge to fill a room full of poor fish. How sad, how sad indeed." "you are doing anything you can to avoid having to justify yourself" "you are concerned with how many you can fit in a room. How sad."

I personally don't feel the need to keep my Betta in five usg tanks, but I do keep all but one in more than a gallon. On the other hand I do not feel the need to chastise other fish keepers with more experience than me for their practises. If I did, I would address them privately and with respect, not calling them names and making unsupported accusations.

On the other hand, Lynden, I should have addressed you in a manner that was more instructive and less assaultive. I would normally have checked your age and approached you more appropriately. <A begrudging> "Sorry" (She walks away mumbling to herself.)

 

[LadyMacca1]

In actuality, I don't see the basis for comparing the domestic Betta splendens with the Betta in the wild???
If investigation on the care of domesticated Betta is to be done, it seems to me one would start with research on how they are cared for in Thailand historically.

The logic of comparing the needs of a German Shepherd with a domestic Betta escapes me. I might just as well say, "Would you keep your dog in a 50 gallon tank of water?" "Would you expect your cat to sleep on a the leaf of a silk plant?"

Ms. Kinky, as I have said before, is in a bowl of less than 1 usg. Am I guilty of abuse? She is not even an inch in length and not pudgy. She almost died in a filtered tank.

LOL Building bubble nests is a sexually charged activity. Do I think that males engaged in such activities are happy? lol Give me a break!

The logic of the boredom example is very like the logic used by indescriminate Betta breeders: Oh! my Betta will have so much fun breeding, and I will enjoy watching him!

No, Lynden, I was addressing your poor taste. I did not believe your post was worthy of a debate. The above response is out of respect for RW.

I do not believe that any of my Bettas (who are all less than two inches) need a five usg. I have kept my Bettas in larger tanks, but did not find that it was necessarily to their benefit. I agree with Synirr's observation that Betta feels the need to patrol his terrotory and may wear himself out in a large container.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. And we call the human race advanced. Well, I guess most of us are, but some of us can't resist the urge to fill a room full of poor fish. How sad, how sad indeed.

I am not flaming anyone. I am merely saying that Bettas have a right to a larger tank.

-Lynden

You just did, you totally dis-respected JollySue.
She hasn't done a single thing to you!
What exactly brought you to this forum to bring up the larger tank for a betta anyways? I'm rather curious.
And I also agree, it was in very poor taste.
BTW Jollysue, love the growing up smiley, too cute, LMAO

 

[SPLiSH]

I'm not even going to vote on this... really, I care about betta welfare as much as anybody, but there are too many silly arguments about tank size popping up lately. IMO, to create one that seems to have the sole purpose of saying why you are right and others are wrong, is just silly.