Question On Gh And Kh

[Vindicare066]

Hi Everyone,
 
I was wondering if the following water parameters are okay for my 30 Gallon Tank. I am for the time being using the API test stripes as my liquid test kit for GH and KH hasn't arrived yet in the mail.
 
I am getting readings of the following: GH ~180ppm, KH 80ppm and a pH of around 7.3-7.4 (API liquid test kit) 7.0-7.2 (API test stripes). The fish in this tank include a school of tetras (Serpae, & Black Phantom), a school of tiger barbs, 1 galaxy pleco and 1 RTS. From the research that I have done, all of these fish with the exception of the Pleco can handle the pH level, now that said the Pleco seems to be doing fine, I am not seeing any signs of distress.
 
I just can't help but feel I should have my pH around 7.0, and I feel like the GH is way to high and I am paranoid this isn't good for my tank. Should I look into doing RO to lower this or should I leave it alone?
 
Thank you for the help!

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I don't know if you researched the pleco before you got him...but this kind seems to grow to around 8-10 inches depending on where you look. A 30 gallon tank is WAY too small for it to grow properly. They need at least a 55 or larger. Also, how many of each of the tetras do you have? As well as the barbs? From what I've read the tiger barb can be very aggressive unless kept in a large group(most like to keep them in a mostly species only tank). They also need a lot of room as well because of the school. With tetra species usually 6 minimum(per species) is suggested. The RTS can get to 4 inches too but I think it also needs more room. LiveAquaria suggests a minimum tank size of 50 gallons for it. So...I know you're worried about your water...but you may want to recheck your stocking before you possibly run into problems. Some fish just aren't compatible for smaller aquariums or to live with each other.

 

[Byron]

I would leave this alone, given the fish species and the test numbers (assuming they are fairly close).  First, a pH difference of a couple decimal points, example from 7.0 to 7.4, is insignificant.  Provided the pH remains relatively stable and does not fluctuate, this is not a problem for these fish.  And by fluctuate, I would not worry if one day it is 7.2 and the next 7.4 as this is minimal.  Also, always test pH at roughly the same time each day you test, as the pH does naturally fluctuate during every 24 hour period, and testing the same time will give you a more accurate picture.  And, tap water if tested has to have the CO2 out-gassed before testing (this is not necessary for aquarium water).
 
I will however offer some explanation as it may help in understanding this chemistry.  The pH is closely connected to the GH and KH, so attempts to lower the pH, if it were advisable which here it is not, would mean having to reduce the GH and KH.  The GH is actually the more important of the three for fish, with respect to the fish's physiology and metabolism.
 
A pH of 7.0 does not occur in natural waters, ever.  This is because 7.0 is neutral, meaning there is nothing dissolved in the water, and this is impossible.  Water is an amazing solvent, which means that it readily and easily takes up any dissolved substances such as organics (to cause acidic water) or minerals (to result in more basic water).  In nature, even as the condensed water falls as rain or snow, it is acquiring substances, primarily CO2, which acidifies it.  Once on the ground, it then takes up various substances depending where it falls and the terrain.  So, my point here is, that you do not want to "aim" for a pH of 7, but preferably have it either side, depending upon the fish.  Soft water fish generally prefer slightly acidic water, whereas moderately hard to hard water fish prefer more basic non-acidic water.  But many species overlap, and provided it is not too extreme either way should have no difficulty.
 
On a completely different point, I will mention that you have some issues with the fish species in this small a tank.  The "RTS" I am assuming is a red tail shark, and this fellow gets to five inches and frequently becomes very nasty.  For reasons no one seems to know, it frequently takes a dislike to vertically striped fish, like the Tiger Barb.
 
A second issue here is that the Tiger Barb and Serpae Tetra are both prone to fin nip, and this can sometimes be lessened by maintaining them in larger groups than many other characins or cyprinids manage with; a group of at least 8, but preferably 10-12, would be advisable.  But in either case, this is best in a 30g tank, on their own.
 
The Black Phantom are inappropriate in a tank with both of these, especially when it is this small--and 30g I can assure you is "small" to the fish's thinking.  Scientific studies are now available that prove these species need more numbers and more space, so give this some thought.  Things may "seem" fine now, but you cannot know how the fish are actually reacting, and often such situations suddenly have problems.
 
Edit: cowgirluntamed posted as I was typing, and she also mentions the pleco which I missed.
 
Byron.

 

[Vindicare066]

I would leave this alone, given the fish species and the test numbers (assuming they are fairly close).  First, a pH difference of a couple decimal points, example from 7.0 to 7.4, is insignificant.  Provided the pH remains relatively stable and does not fluctuate, this is not a problem for these fish.  And by fluctuate, I would not worry if one day it is 7.2 and the next 7.4 as this is minimal.  Also, always test pH at roughly the same time each day you test, as the pH does naturally fluctuate during every 24 hour period, and testing the same time will give you a more accurate picture.  And, tap water if tested has to have the CO2 out-gassed before testing (this is not necessary for aquarium water).
 
I will however offer some explanation as it may help in understanding this chemistry.  The pH is closely connected to the GH and KH, so attempts to lower the pH, if it were advisable which here it is not, would mean having to reduce the GH and KH.  The GH is actually the more important of the three for fish, with respect to the fish's physiology and metabolism.
 
A pH of 7.0 does not occur in natural waters, ever.  This is because 7.0 is neutral, meaning there is nothing dissolved in the water, and this is impossible.  Water is an amazing solvent, which means that it readily and easily takes up any dissolved substances such as organics (to cause acidic water) or minerals (to result in more basic water).  In nature, even as the condensed water falls as rain or snow, it is acquiring substances, primarily CO2, which acidifies it.  Once on the ground, it then takes up various substances depending where it falls and the terrain.  So, my point here is, that you do not want to "aim" for a pH of 7, but preferably have it either side, depending upon the fish.  Soft water fish generally prefer slightly acidic water, whereas moderately hard to hard water fish prefer more basic non-acidic water.  But many species overlap, and provided it is not too extreme either way should have no difficulty.
 
On a completely different point, I will mention that you have some issues with the fish species in this small a tank.  The "RTS" I am assuming is a red tail shark, and this fellow gets to five inches and frequently becomes very nasty.  For reasons no one seems to know, it frequently takes a dislike to vertically striped fish, like the Tiger Barb.
 
A second issue here is that the Tiger Barb and Serpae Tetra are both prone to fin nip, and this can sometimes be lessened by maintaining them in larger groups than many other characins or cyprinids manage with; a group of at least 8, but preferably 10-12, would be advisable.  But in either case, this is best in a 30g tank, on their own.
 
The Black Phantom are inappropriate in a tank with both of these, especially when it is this small--and 30g I can assure you is "small" to the fish's thinking.  Scientific studies are now available that prove these species need more numbers and more space, so give this some thought.  Things may "seem" fine now, but you cannot know how the fish are actually reacting, and often such situations suddenly have problems.
 
Edit: cowgirluntamed posted as I was typing, and she also mentions the pleco which I missed.
 
Byron.

 
okay this is good to know about the pH. I was nervous that a 7-2-7.4 could be a serious problem. I know not to go messing around with pH I just wanted to make sure this wouldn't cause problems. Is the GH going to be an issue with it being 180ppm? I feel like that is a little high. 
 
Regarding the fish. The pleco, Serpaes and Black Phantoms were not fish that i purchased, I acquired them when I rescued a 5 gallon tank from my roommate who didn't do his research and bought fish for the sake of buying them. I posted a thread found here on that matter and highlighted my game plan for the next few months regarding housing the fish that came in this tank: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/441722-acquired-5-gal-tank-need-help/ 
 
I have certainly seen the nippiness of the serpaes when they were in the 5 gallon tank and I know that they need a decent size school to lower aggression. The number of fish seem to be conflicting though and no one has given me a straight answer when it comes to if it has to be the same species or not. The tank currently holds 7 tetras I can go out and get more if that number is to low, however, I now suspect I am reaching the limit of the bioload the tank can handle and so I don't want to over populate the tank. Of all the fish in the tank, the serpaes seem to be the trouble makers....however, they tend to pick on each other and not the other fish.
 
The pleco needs a larger tank, this I know for a fact, however, the 30 gallon was given to me for free and was a big step up from the 5. This 30 gallon tank is a temporary home for the pleco and he will be moved into a larger one as soon as I have enough money save up to buy a larger tank and when I move into my new house in the next few months. The pleco is only 2.5 inches long so the 30 gallon should suffice and buy me enough time to get everything in order before the pleco's size becomes an issue.
 
Regarding the RTS. I am aware these guys can reach upwards of 5inches, and that they can be territorial. However, so long as there is only one of them, they add last to the tank, and they are not sharing the tank with any other fish that look similar to them, they should do fine, that is what I have found browsing the internet. The RTS is currently only 1.5 inches now and from what I can gather he grows around .25-0.50 inches every month in ideal water conditions and in a large tank. With this in mind, I have at least 3 months before his size will truly be a issue in this tank. Nevertheless, he will be moved into the larger tank with the pleco, so this too is a temporary home for him. It is interesting that you mention that they do not like striped fish, and I have actually heard the opposite when it comes to keeping Tiger barbs and RTS. But i will keep this in mind and watch him closely, I am sure as he grows his temperament will change. The RTS in the tank seems to not care about the other fish around him, and I haven't seen him display any serious acts of aggression.
 
With the tiger barbs  I actually created a thread inquiring if I could stock Tiger barbs in a school of 6 in this 30 gallon tank with the other fish i mentioned above, I was told I could and that size school would be fine. But if this won't work then i will certainly look at moving one of the species into the larger tank when it gets set up. In the mean time,  I can go out and get a few more however, I don't want to risk over populating the tank. Its interesting that you mention the Tiger barbs being aggressive, and nippy. I was expecting this too, however, I have not seen this happen....I have seen the occasional chase but for the most part the barbs are actually schooling and getting along well with the phantoms. The serpaes tend to do their own thing and leave the other fish alone. 

 

[Vindicare066]

Hi Byron,
 
  So, my point here is, that you do not want to "aim" for a pH of 7, but preferably have it either side, depending upon the fish.  Soft water fish generally prefer slightly acidic water, whereas moderately hard to hard water fish prefer more basic non-acidic water.  But many species overlap, and provided it is not too extreme either way should have no difficulty.
 
So this line got me thinking and has triggered another question regarding GH, KH and pH. How well can fish adapt to the hardness of the water? Furthermore, what kind of water should I have if the fish can survive in both acidic or basic water conditions? In my case, all the fish in the tank with the exception of the pleco (who prefers more acidic/ softer to neutral water) can handle ranges between 6.5 to 7.5 pH (this is what I have found on the internet) which would translates to slightly acidic/soft to slightly basic/hard. So should I cater to the pleco and try to lower the hardness of the water and pH to meet the plecos needs through safe and natural means (i.e. driftwood) as the other fish will do fine in the more acidic/softer conditions or should I leave everything alone and not worry about it at all as the water readings I have done when it comes to GH KH and pH are constantly stable and not fluctuating.    
 
On another side note going back to the fish. I have been giving more thought about the Tiger Barbs and Tetras. I am now considering returning one of the schools (leaning towards the serpaes) to boost the size of the other one. Returning the RTS and pleco are off the table as I really like them and would rather work around these two. However, I do have two questions, and I will do my best to word this clearly. They both relate to behaviour.
 
So first set of questions. If you have one aggressive species in the tank (Serpaes) can they trigger the other species to become aggressive as well even if that species isn't targeting the other fish but rather just their own kind? As i mentioned above, I haven't seen much aggression coming from the Tiger barbs (yet) nor have I seen any from the black phantoms, or even the RTS. Everything seems to come from the serpaes but any aggression coming from the serpaes is for the most part directed at each other and not the other fish. Could the stress that the serpaes are inflicting on themselves stress out the other fish and make them get hostile to each other or the other tank mates? Also at what point do you draw the line in the sand on fish aggression especially when you are dealing with nippy fish. When I sit and watch the fish for a solid hour or two, you see the occasional chase around the tank, the odd duel and that is it. It is only around feeding time that you see fish chase each other off and you see the nipping taking place. 
 
 
My second question is, if I were to remove one of these schools either by returning them to the store or moving them to a new aquarium will i see a heightened aggression in the species that remains as there is now a void in the pecking order in the tank? Right now I feel like the aggression of the tiger barbs are in check because the serpaes are in the tank, and with the serpaes being the larger of the two I haven't seen even the largest tiger barb challenge them. Rather I am seeing them either keep their distance or I see them occasionally schooling with one another. On a random side note. do all tiger barbs show aggression? I have two different types of tiger barbs in the tank.. I have the classic orange and black striped barbs and then I also have the smaller orange and white striped barbs (I wanted just one kind but the LFS gave me both and said they would be fine together). Any aggression that I have seen coming from the tiger barbs are coming from the black striped ones and the white striped barbs. 
 
Ultimately, I want to weigh the pros and cons of removing/ moving one of the fish species from the tank. I also want to try and figure out which of the two would better choice to move, right now I am leaning towards the serpaes as I have seen their aggression. But I know full well as soon as these barbs get larger they could be trouble makers too. 
 
Thanks again for your help.
 
Vindi

 

[Byron]

I'll deal in this post with the water parameters, and respond to the species/behavioural issues separately.
 
The GH wasn't mentioned previously, but now that I know it is 180ppm (equals 10 dGH), no, this is not much of an issue here with the fish, though the Black Phantom and pleco would prefer softer water.  I would expect the KH to be similar, which means the pH is fairly well buffered and unlike to lower.  So adding chunks of wood or other organic substances is not going to have much if any effect here.  Without targeting the GH/KH somehow, the pH is going to remain pretty much as it comes out of the tap.  And with the fish mentioned (except the Phantoms) this is OK.
 
Fish adapting to different water parameters is a complex issue, and one I have researched fairly extensively over the past several years.  First, we must understand that the relationship of fish to their aquatic environment is very unique, and quite unlike the relationship of almost any terrestrial animal to air.  The water is continually entering the fish by osmosis through the cells, as well as in the gills (which is why freshwater fish do not "drink").  Water is the strongest solvent in nature, so it is chemically affected by every substance into which it comes in contact.  Everything dissolved in the water thus enters the fish, getting into the bloodstream and internal organs, and impacting the osmoregulatory process in the gills.  This has a profound effect upon the fish's physiology, metabolism and homeostasis; at this point I will cut/paste from an article I wrote for another forum.
 
Homeostasis is defined as “the tendency of an organism or a cell to regulate its internal conditions, usually by a system of feedback controls, so as to stabilize health and functioning, regardless of the outside changing conditions.”  Physiological homeostasis, or physical equilibrium, is the internal process animals use to maintain their health and life: “the complex chain of internal chemical reactions that keep the pH of its blood steady, its tissues fed, and the immune system functioning” (Muha, 2006).
 
Four important body functions of homeostasis are closely associated with processes in the gills: gas exchange, hydromineral (osmoregulation) control, acid-base balance [pH] and nitrogenous waste excretion [ammonia].  These processes are possible because of the close proximity of the blood flowing through the gills to the surrounding water, as well as the differences in the chemical composition of these two fluids (Bartelme, 2004).  Each species of fish has evolved within a specific environment—and by “environment” in this context we mean everything associated with the water in which the fish lives—and the physiological homeostasis only functions well within that environment.  This greater dependence upon their surrounding environment is why fish are more susceptible to stress than many other animals (Wedemeyer, 1996).
 
Thus the fish will be at its best health if it is maintained in an environment reasonably close to that for which it is designed.  As soon as the environment changes, stress sets in; Biology Online defines stress thus:
The sum of the biological reactions to any adverse stimulus—physical, mental or emotional, internal or external—that tends to disturb the organisms homeostasis; should these compensating reactions be inadequate or inappropriate, they may lead to disorders.
 
Adaptation to different parameters is generally very limited, and unique to individual species; some species appear to have this capability, others show no adaptive ability at all.  There are several factors for this, but all tend to relate to the evolution of the individual species.  The parameter range for species that we try to come up with is an artificial guide based upon extensive studies of the species and its habitat.  Another thing is that the species may show little if any external reaction to this, which gives some the false conclusion that the fish is "fine" in my water.  I'll illustrate this with the results of tests run in Germany on cardinal tetras back in the 1980's.  They found that the fish's lifespan was directly related to the GH (mineral content) of the water, especially calcium.  The harder the water, the shorter the lifespan, and upon death, dissection revealed calcium blockage in the kidneys.  Other soft water species are certain to have the same issues.  The GH is the more crucial parameter; the pH is of less importance, provided it is not extreme, and in any case it tends to be relative to the GH/KH.
 
Feel free to ask if any of this is unclear.  I'll post this, and then come back to the other issue.
 
Byron.

 

[Byron]

To the matter of fish behaviours, and I will be general in my comments.  
 
There are no hard and fast rules because we are after all dealing with living creatures and we all know how much diversity within a species there may be.  However, there are quite specific behaviours that are normal to a species, and we are wise to assume these will hold, rather than "experiment" and hope for the best.  I realize you have acquired the problems, so to speak, but others reading may assume this always works, and follow suit.  The norm for a species should be our guide, as it is how one aims to provide the best environment and that, as I hope I made clear in the previous post, is the only means of promoting the best health.
 
It is also a different situation for someone with only one tank as opposed to someone like myself with a fish room of 8 tanks.  I have more than once had to move a species to avoid trouble, something that would not be possible if I had just one display tank.
 
The environment affects fish behaviours.  Environment means everything from water parameters (GH, pH, temperature) to tank space to the decor to the numbers within the species to other species.  Scientific studies on these factors are only now occurring, and they are showing that fish tend to react to stress with increased aggression.  This is about the only way a fish can deal with frustration, though sometimes the opposite occurs when the fish goes into withdrawal and literally wastes away.  However, before these end results are reached, the fish is being affected unseen by us.  So it is a mistake to assume that everything is fine just because we see no signs otherwise.  We cannot see all of them.  Nathan Hill's observation in blue in my signature block needs to be kept in mind here.
 
Before physical signs occur, fish are releasing chemical signals; pheromones are picked up and "read" by others of the species, and allomones by other species.  Fish communicate through these signals, and use them to alert others in the species to food or dangers, initiate spawning and other behaviours, warn of aggression, etc.  Think of it like this:  a cat tossed into a closed room with an extremely vicious dog chained in the corner will be severely stressed.  The dog cannot get the cat, but the cat doesn't know this; the cat only reads the signs and is seriously impacted.  We don't need to "see" aggression but it may be there nonetheless.  And this is affecting the health of other fish, through stress.  Stress is the cause of 95% of all fish disease; the pathogen has to be present, but it takes stress to trigger things.
 
So where this leads is to your question of the present "calm" behaviours.  This may well be due to the severe stress of the confined space.  The fish were in a very unnatural or abnormal environment, both from the tank size (and resulting water quality as well as physical space) to the reduced numbers of their own, to the presence of other species.  All this confusion impacted their systems.  Fish may slowly come round to their more natural and inherent traits, though often this results in a much more aggressive behaviour as a result.
 
It is therefore difficult to predict what will occur with this or that "fix."  My first aim is for the health of my fish, so I always provide the most natural setting I can.  As soon as I see trouble, I consider causes and options.  When I bring home a fish, I consider that I have taken on this responsibility.
 
Byron.

 

[Vindicare066]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! I am going to have to read this a few times for it all to process but I understand what you have typed and thus far can't think of any questions regarding either of your posts as of right now. You have debunked another myth i heard from the LFS and I have seen on the forums. So I really appreciate your insight!  
 
 Nevertheless, your posts have given me a clear course on what my next step should be which is remove one of the schools to bring the tank back to a more natural environment, and I will cater this tank  to the Tiger barbs. I do have another 30 gallon tank kicking around but i do not have the space to set it up at the moment and my priority is to get money saved up for the 55 Gallon, so I wouldn't be able to make a suitable environment for the tetras. So I will return these fish to the LFS. I will also look at increasing the Tiger barb population to around 10 leave the tank at that.