Question Dealing With Filtration In A Planted Tank.

[vonjankmon]

I'm setting up a new 55G high tech heavily planted tank that I am planning on buying a RenaXP3 canister filter for but I have a questions that I am hoping some folks can help me out on. Some quick info about the tank, it will have heavy lighting, CO2 injection and the water will be low PH, around 6.6-6.8, with relatively soft water (I will be using bog wood to lower both the PH and hardness)

My question is what filter media should I use?

I'm going to have plants such as Java Fern and Java Moss in the tank that take nutrients from the water and I'm going to be dosing with liquid fertilizer but I'm a bit concerned that if I use active carbon the liquid fertilizer will just absorb a good portion of it. Also with the XP3 being a larger filter than I have ever used before I'm not sure what to fill it with. Rena has all kinds of filter media but in the past I've basically just used hang on filters with the mesh bags and carbon or a XP1 which basically just has room for foam and carbon.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[SuperColey1]

I'm setting up a new 55G high tech heavily planted tank that I am planning on buying a RenaXP3 canister filter for but I have a questions that I am hoping some folks can help me out on. Some quick info about the tank, it will have heavy lighting, CO2 injection and the water will be low PH, around 6.6-6.8, with relatively soft water (I will be using bog wood to lower both the PH and hardness)

What do you mean by heavy lighting? as in it weighs 50kg? Can you detail what tubes, type of bulb and wattage? Co2 injection via which means? DIY/Yeast or pressurised. How do you know what Ph it will be. CO2 will bring it down and its easier to leave the Ph as it is rather than maintaining a level on it.

My question is what filter media should I use?

Any. No need to buy branded gear. Get some of the sheets of foam that are for pond filters and cut them to fit.

I'm going to have plants such as Java Fern and Java Moss in the tank that take nutrients from the water and I'm going to be dosing with liquid fertilizer but I'm a bit concerned that if I use active carbon the liquid fertilizer will just absorb a good portion of it.

I'm sure that you mean the carbon will absorb (or rather ADSORB) the fertiliser. Planted tanks should definately not have carbon in the filter for this very reason. It is debatable if they should be used in any filter as they have a very short life, which varies dependent on who you listen to but some say it only lasts for 48 hours. It is widely accepted that unless you are trying to remove contaminants such as medicines after your fish are cured then theres no use in them really (Just another item for the filter makers to say you need to replce bi-weekly!!!!

When you say you are going to have plants such as Java Fern and Moss can you detail a little more and percentage of substrate that is to be planted. These 2 are low light plants yet I assume by 'heavy lighting' you are meaning high lighting. If so then these 2 plants will not really like this unless they are shaded by other plants. Therefore you maybe wasting money on the lighting if only using low light plants.

Also with the XP3 being a larger filter than I have ever used before I'm not sure what to fill it with. Rena has all kinds of filter media but in the past I've basically just used hang on filters with the mesh bags and carbon or a XP1 which basically just has room for foam and carbon.

See the comments above r.e. this. I would ignore the Rena items and just get some white/green/bl;ue foam for pond filters and a pair of scissors

Andy

 

[vonjankmon]

Going to have about 200 Watts of Compact fluorescent light, pressurized C02 injection. I know the PH because I set up a second 55 gallon tank to hold all my fish while I was redoing this one. I have the bog wood I purchased for the new tank in there and it stablized the PH around 6.8 and made the water ultra soft. (I'm currently working on the best method to harden the water a little bit as it is currently much lower than I want)

The tank is a standard 55 gallon tank, which means it's a bit taller than is really ideal for a planted tank but with as much light as I will probably have I still may need to reduce it a bit for low light plants I have but I don't forsee having a real horrible problem with burning. I currently have Java Fern on two different pieces of the bog wood, one piece is a bit over 14 inches and it has three bunches of Java Fern on it and another smaller piece has one.

So the whole tank won't be Java Fern by any means but I know that is at least one plant I will have right now as I purchased it with the bog wood so that I could attach it now and hopefully get it on its way to sticking to the bog wood without the need for thread. My goal in setting up the tank is to have the equipment to have just about any kind of planted set up that I want once I get the basic tank set up. It's easy to turn down C02 injection or reduce the light.

And my question about media types is more along the lines of should I use ceramic rings or similar things, something like Rena's Phos-Zorb to remove phosphate, or something else entirely. Having foam in the filter is a no brainer but an XP3 can hold a fairly decent amount of filter media and it would seem silly (and maybe I'm wrong here, if I am please say so) to have a bunch of foam and then a bunch of empty space.

 

[SuperColey1]

I dont mean to sound antagonistic in my posts. If I do I apologise.

Going to have about 200 Watts of Compact fluorescent light, pressurized C02 injection.

200W of PC is overkill to say the least and no plant needs that ratio of 3.6WPG in your size tank. Remember that the WPG rule was calculated on T12s and PCs are much more intense so imagine how much that improved efficiency would equate to on the WPG scale. (I would guess close to 5) A tank your size should be able to grow anything with just 2 - 2.5WPG of T8!!!!

I know the PH because I set up a second 55 gallon tank to hold all my fish while I was redoing this one. I have the bog wood I purchased for the new tank in there and it stablized the PH around 6.8 and made the water ultra soft. (I'm currently working on the best method to harden the water a little bit as it is currently much lower than I want)

6.8 is not ultra soft its about neutral. My tank is 6.4 and I would call that soft but not ultra. You say you know your Ph but when you add CO2 you will be bringing your Ph down by about 1 so you could end up with 5.8!!!

The tank is a standard 55 gallon tank, which means it's a bit taller than is really ideal for a planted tank but with as much light as I will probably have I still may need to reduce it a bit for low light plants I have but I don't forsee having a real horrible problem with burning. I currently have Java Fern on two different pieces of the bog wood, one piece is a bit over 14 inches and it has three bunches of Java Fern on it and another smaller piece has one.

I wouldn't be too worried about heights of tanks. As long as they are under 24inches then it shouldn't make any difference (mine is 20ish)

The problem isn't burning from the high light. That would only occur with plants too close to the light. Its just that with high lights is that they drive the plants growth at turbo levels and thus less room for error. One nutrient fails and the whole system gives way to algae which is also driven much faster by high lihgt. therefore using the minimum you require for the plants you want is the best option as it gives you more time to correct anything especially in the early days.

And my question about media types is more along the lines of should I use ceramic rings or similar things, something like Rena's Phos-Zorb to remove phosphate, or something else entirely. Having foam in the filter is a no brainer but an XP3 can hold a fairly decent amount of filter media and it would seem silly (and maybe I'm wrong here, if I am please say so) to have a bunch of foam and then a bunch of empty space.

With filters on planted tanks the filter is not doing the same work it would in a non planted tank. It is there more to provide circulation so that the nutrients and CO2 can be distributed around the tank. The plants eat up most of the ammonia as it is a source of Nitrogen. The filter will have some bacteria in it and it is a good idea to have some media in there to provide a base for a colony to build as back up plus to help remove any gunk that the filter takes through it. We overpower our planted tanks so that we have up to 5 x turnover (mine is 700lph on a 125LTR).

When a filter says it is a 700lph this measurement is when it is empty. Add in the filter media (I have half the cannister empty) then add in the steriliser and then add in the external heater this 700lph will be gretaly reduced!!!. Therefore rather than wasting your money on ceramic rings or bio balls (unless they came with it for free) I would just fill it with some cheap foam to provide a polishing service to the water and also to provide a home for any bacteria that do grow.

In a planted tank you wouldn't put Carbon in because it removes nutrients by adsobtion. In the same way you don't want PhosZorb because you don't want to remove the Phosphate. The plants need it!!!

All in all (and TBH Im not a fan of PC lights) I would aim for 2WPG of HOT5 Linears rather than PCs. This should be more than enough for the tank you have to grow anything you want.

Can I ask what kind of fertilising routine you are aiming to use?

Andy

 

[Dave Spencer]

Vonjankman,

Please don`t take this the wrong way, but if you are are considering using phosphate remover in a `hi tech` planted tank, then you should read up a little more on how these types of tank work. Don`t mention phosphates and algae control.

The benefit of running a heavily planted, fast growing tank is that you already have the best kind of filtration out there...your plants. With this in my mind, I use the filter primarily for the movement of nutrients around the tank. Over filtering is the way ahead for you, here.

My filters basically consist of a minimal amount of cheap pond foam of various grades for mechanical filtration. Plus it provides a home for the reduced bacteria colony, which is still important. Alongside the foam, I use Purigen for water clarity, and zeolite when the tank is first set up to remove as much ammonia as possible, thus reducing the possibility of an algae outbreak.

I know that the bacteria colony needs the ammonia to get started, but it will develop eventually, and I still have my plants to rely on. Once the zeolite is exhausted, bacteria will be able to colonise it and use the ammonia.

My next tank is going to be a 240l using two Tetratec EX1200 filters with the bare minimum of filter media. The filters will be feeding in from either side of the tank, with the outflow on the front at one side, and at the back on the other side. A little experimentation will reveal the best positions to avoid any nutrient free zones.

I agree with what Andy says as well, except for the confusion over pH and water softness. They are linked, but are still two separate things. A pH of 6.8 is not an indication of softness, it means your water is slightly acidic.

Dave.

 

[chrisdoesntmiss]

Dave - Does Zeolite leach ammonia back into the water when it is saturated or does it lock it in indefinately ???

 

[vonjankmon]

I called the water soft because my GH is around 3 and my KH is around 2 in German degrees. Thus why I need to harden it a bit as with such low levels the tiniest CO2 would probably cause my PH to drop quickly and significantly.

And I did not realize that the compacts were so much more powerful in comparison, this really isn't a problem as the lighting setup I have has 2 sets of 2 55 Watt compact, each set on a different control so I can just not use one set, reducing my lighting to 110 Watts of compact. Easy enough solution but I'm glad you said something SuperColey1. Is the difference in power among the different lights listed or documented anywhere? Seems like in all the reading I've done indepth, researched information on lighting is the hardest to come by.

Seems like the general consensus is that the only real filtration needed is foam to catch large pieces of food/debris/whatever and if I feel like it ceramic rings or what not for encouraged bacteria growth, which answers my first question.

As for a fertilizing routine, I'm not 100% sure yet. I ended up with some fertilizer from RedSea when I purchased their Freshwater testing kit and I've been using it on my spare tank with the Java Fern, which is doing quiet well with it, close to a dozen new shoots in 2-3 weeks but I don't know what it might of done without any at all so that's not real definitive either way. I've looked around a bit and it bothers me a little bit that all of the commercial liquid fertilizers on the market generally don't tell you much about what is actually in them. Doesn't give me the warm fuzzies to be dumping some random solution in my fish tank on a regular basis without knowing what's in it but I'm open to suggestions if people have extended experience with particular types of liquid fertilizer.

 

[SuperColey1]

I have no idea or experience with altering the water parameters intenionally. I have bogwood and CO2 and the water parameters are whatever they are. I don't do anything to it, so I can't answer this one.

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On the lighting issue there is a post on APC somewhere but I can't find it. It doesn't detail properly a definition of how much more light per gradient of tube. There is much confusion over lighting but it is definate that the WPG rule was calculated with T12 (1½ inch diameter) tubes whereas most people now use T8 (1 inch) or a variant of T5 (5/8ths of an inch)

It would be virtually impossible to do a WPG chart after all 1W = 1W whatever light you have. Its the actual effectiveness of the lamp in conjunction with the reflected light that makes the difference in that a thinner bulb will block less reflected light plus they are more efficient too.

The WPG rule is fine to use as a base starter point for T8s but when you reach T5 wether it be linear, PC or HO linear then you are talking a major difference. Then you have different reflectors of different designs which will all be better or worse than each other.

Its a case of try it and then alter it if its not right.

The scale I would work on (and is in no way tested or scientific, just from observations of my plants/algae/nitrate levels indicating things to me during my trawl from T8 to PC to HO T5) would be as follows compared to WPG

T12 = 1, T10 = 1.1, T8 = 1.25, T5 = 1.5, PC = 1.75, HO T5 = 2. <---Not scientific, just a guess and in no way to be taken as a rule.

IME the PC T5 light gives off too intense a light in a smaller area which leads to algae in certain points, whereas the T5 linears (HO or normal) spread the light through the tank better.

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In answer to the filtration, my filter came with the following (Tray 1 is at the top)

1 - 1 coarse foam/carbon bag/filter floss polishing pad
2 - 2 x coarse foam
3 - Bio balls
4 - ceramic rings/coarse foam

I run mine without anything in tray2, and just 2 coarse foam in the top tray (no carbon and no polishing pad) the water clarity is still crystal clear!! I only use the bio balls and ceramic rings because they were free and came with the filter, if it had come without media then I would've just gone the pond sheet route.

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If you choose to go the high light route then I would suggest that you ditch the 'off the shelf' ferts as you will end up paying through the nose for the quantities you need. I would instead go the dry powders route (putting the powders direct into your tank or premixing with DI water) on either of the 3 methods on the dosing methods page on this site: They are EI (the most common dosing method), PMDD+P (A leaner dosing method which I use), All in one (same as PMDD but with some extra ingredients to allow you to mix 1 solution of fertiliser rather than 2 seperate ones)

LINK TO PLANT DOSING METHODS AND OTHER INTERESTING THINGS

Powders can be picked up at aquaessentials.co.uk (or anywhere else that sells the same items)

1 pre made quality fert will cost more than 10x the amount of mixing your own!!!

Hope this helps a little
Andy

 

[Dave Spencer]

I called the water soft because my GH is around 3 and my KH is around 2 in German degrees. Thus why I need to harden it a bit as with such low levels the tiniest CO2 would probably cause my PH to drop quickly and significantly.

You have very soft tap water, just like me. I inject CO2 at 30ppm and have some wood leaching tannins in to the water giving me a pH around 6. Your best bet is to buy fish that thrive in this. You won`t be particularly limited in choice.

TFF does have a lot of scaremonger posts about various things, pH crash being one of them. Most people are either just perpetuating myths, or, if their pH has crashed, it is because they have cocked up. Few of them are speaking from experience.

Messing around with the hardness will cause your fish far more grief than the pH. If I were you, I would live with the hardness you have, and choose your fish accordingly.

Dave.

 

[vonjankmon]

Thanks for the link SuperColey1, that page had a lot of information that I was curious about.

And my fish are all Gourmai's and Tiger Barbs so they should all be fine in a tank with low PH I believe.