Prime, Kordon Amquel Plus & Flourish Test Results

[KISSfn]

Noticed yesterday after my weekly water change my Free Ammonia level rose to 0.024 so I ran a test today. Filled a glass with plain tap water and put my Seneye in it. Read 0.02 Free Ammonia. Added some drops of Prime, Free Ammonia rose to 0.040. Added a few drops of Kordon Amquel Plus, Free Ammonia rose to 0.045. Added a few drops of Flourish, Free Ammonia dropped slightly to 0.042. I must admit I am surprised and puzzled by these results. Prime is supposed to bind Ammonia to Ammonium to safe levels. Kordon Amquel Plus is supposed to do the same. Does anyone know why products that claim to lower Free Ammonia actually made it rise?

 

[ian]

because ammonium is normally picked up by test kits as well. Presumably the Seyene does the same??

 

[KISSfn]

The Seneye is supposed to read Free Ammonia only.

 

[KISSfn]

Is Prime not as great as we have been told?

 

[Tizer]

Is the Seneye being crap? Im not sure which i would trust more at this point

 

[KISSfn]

Can't blame the Seneye as ammonia dropped to 0.006 when back in tank.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Read 0.02 Free Ammonia. Added some drops of Prime, Free Ammonia rose to 0.040.

My best guess, not knowing the technique used by seneye to detect ammonia/ammonium, is that there is chloramine in your tap water and the molecule that Prime (and other dechlorinators) binds that ammonia into is readable by the seneye, whereas the chloramine is not.

I think you should contact seneye and Seachem and ask them the question, the answers would be very interesting.

Had another thought which may be more likely. It's actually a small change of free ammonia and could have been caused just by a change of pH. Did you read the pH as well?

 

[KISSfn]

Read 0.02 Free Ammonia. Added some drops of Prime, Free Ammonia rose to 0.040.

My best guess, not knowing the technique used by seneye to detect ammonia/ammonium, is that there is chloramine in your tap water and the molecule that Prime (and other dechlorinators) binds that ammonia into is readable by the seneye, whereas the chloramine is not.

I think you should contact seneye and Seachem and ask them the question, the answers would be very interesting.

Had another thought which may be more likely. It's actually a small change of free ammonia and could have been caused just by a change of pH. Did you read the pH as well?

My tank pH is 6.4, or lower as 6.4 is the lowest reading this generation of Seneye slide can read. The tap water pH was 6.9. I thought > 0.02 Free Ammonia was a toxic level. I will try to get a response from Seneye and Seachem.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

I thought > 0.02 Free Ammonia was a toxic level.

Definitely but I wasn't commenting on its toxicity, I was just saying that the change from 0.02 to 0.04 is small enough to be caused by a change of pH.

 

[KISSfn]

Response from Seneye:
This is a good question,
I do know that NH4 is in its self a buffer that can affect pH but I'm not sure the answer lies here.
Between you and me I suspect that amquel and prime use the same base DE chlorinator (there is only one good product in the world and its patented).
We have tested prime here but maybe not at the concentrations you have.
Interesting it dropped back down after the test so I think it has to be real (?)
I will sleep on it and get back to you.
Kind regard
Matt

Response from Seachem:
Thank you for using Prime and also for writing us with your experience.
Honestly, I do not see how this could be possible, as detoxifying ammonia is one
of Prime's major functions. Do you know how the monitor works to measure
ammonia (i.e.does it read the gas form of ammonia)? Do you have a test kit
on-hand or the option of testing free ammonia using a test kit for reference?
This is the first I have ever heard of Prime actually contributing to free
ammonia.
Any additional information that you can provide
will be most helpful. Thank you, and have a nice evening.
Product Support

Response from Kordon:
Kordon AmQuel Plus consistently detoxifies ammonia. It would appear that the test that you used is not reading correctly. For more information about the AmQuel Plus please go on the Internet to www.kordon.com. Click on the second tab at the top of the page (Kordon with a drawing of a fish). On the KORDON PRODUCTS page scroll down under "Water Conditioners" to AmQuel Plus for further information on this product.

 

[KISSfn]

Additional response from Seachem:
I am not sure how the Seneye would read NH3 after two ammonia reducing products have been introduced. Prime does not contain any ammonia and will bind with any free ammonia present so there should be no increase when it is introduced. Now, when chloramine is detoxified, it will leave behind a nitrogen atom which can quickly associate with hydrogen atoms to product ammonia. It is possible that the Seneye detected this but Prime also detoxifies ammonia so it should not have been present for more than a few seconds. Because Amquel Plus also detoxifies ammonia, it should have added to this effect which leads me to believe that there is some sort of interference with the sensor. I can find little information on how this piece of equipment detects ammonia so it is hard for me to give any reasoning to this. Have you contacted Seneye? If this is something that is occurring regularly, they should be aware of it and be able to give you additional information.
Product Support

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Presumably Seneye will repeat the tests under more controlled conditions and come back with a response. I'd give them a nudge again if they don't. I haven't looked into it, mainly because there's nowhere to find the information, but I doubt the Seneye's accuracy and repeatability is good enough to differentiate between 0.02ppm and 0.04ppm free ammonia. Another question you might like to pose to them.

 

[KISSfn]

Additional response from Seachem:
Matt (from Seneye) has a good point, I am sure that concentration plays a role. Two drops of Prime is enough to treat a gallon of water and if added to a glass of water, say 300-500 ml, this would have been a bit of an overdose. This still would not have increased the NH3 but maybe with enough Prime, could have caused a faulty positive. Not really sure though. I am also unsure how adding Flourish would have lowered the NH3. I would think that Flourish would be more likely to raise it than Prime being as it contains some organics. What is the pH of your aquarium?

 

[TropicalJuwel]

KISSfn this has been an interesting post and hopefully one that someone from this forum has found a potential problem in either a device to test water parameters or conditioners many use.

Its good to see that seachem want to get to the bottom of this with the contact there making with you, and the amount of head stratching you have caused them by stumping them with your results. Its certain that if it is a fault at the seneye end there is obviously no way there going to publish the way there product tests for ammonia unless they have the patent rights.

I love the reply from kordon, basically "no its not our product its bullet proof, its what your using to test with is incorrect" lol.

Certainly an interesting topic and will by good to find where the issue lays wether it being seneye or the conditioners.

 

[KISSfn]

Additional response from Seachem:
The overdose could have something to do with it but I am confused as to why you would see any reading in the tank at all. I would bet that the Seneye is detecting total ammonia ( NH4) instead of NH3. When in an aquatic environment with a pH below 7.0 it is very unlikely that any NH3 will be found. At low pH, there are far more hydrogen atoms available and because NH3 will pick these up, any availalble NH3 is going to rapidly convert to the NH4 form. When you added the Prime to the tap water, if chloramine was present, Prime would break the chloramine bond, producing ammonia. However, Prime would also bind with this ammonia and it would be detectable by a total ammonia test ( and it sounds like the Seneye detects it as well). This would account for the small amounts of ammonia you are noticing. I think your best bet at this point is to obtain a test kit that can test for both NH3 and total ammonia, of course I would recommend the Seachem Ammonia Multitest. Test the NH3 with this and I would bet that you will find none. Let us know how it goes and if you have any additional questions.