Please Help Fish With Fin Rot And Getting Thin

[guppyfan77]

Hello, Please can someone help me work out what would be the best meds for my fish.
After a couple of years of trouble free tropical fishkeeping I have a problem I cant beat .

Tank 24x12x12 Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 10-30 ( over several months) pH 7.5 Temp 26C
I do 20% water changes every 5-7days and always have
I do 2x40 water changes in between meds, so they have a 4 day rest inbetween.

About 4 months ago I bought 5 pairs of guppies from LFS that had come direct from Europe
They had been QT'd for a week before I bought them
They went into a new tank on their own. I dosed with Melafix and Pimafix for a week “just in case” The tank was fully cycled with readings as above
All was well for a month or so, then I noticed the biggest female had a bit of fin rot so I treated with Interpet Fin Rot treatment. It seemed to halt the rot but it came back and soon all the females were affected and one by one started to become emaciated. So I changed meds and used King British Fin Rot treatment

The fins just seem to diappear slowly - starting on the underside. there is no discolouration - the fin stays transparent, no fluffy fungus or red streaks. They are definately not being nibbled by tank mates.

Within a week they started to die one by one over the next month, becoming very thin, resting on the substrate and shimmying when swimming though continued to feed. Only the females seem to be affected. From noticing the first sign of fin rot to death took about 2 months and only seems to affect adult F's. Juvs showed no sign of it until they have produced their first fry drop and then they go downhill. I have tried treating individuals in a hospital tank, but they died anyway and as the tank seemed to be affected I have just treated the whole tank lately.

I have just finished the second course of esha 2000 and now have only quite young juv females, but still nearly all of the adult males, including males born here. One adult male was found dead and very bloated one morning, no raised scales or any other sign of illness. The ones I have left seem ok, but as the F's are all juvs- it follows that on previous history they prob will get ill when they are older.

Last week I broke down the tank, scrubbed everything with esha 2000 as directed and kept 50% of the tank water and topped up with conditioned water. I now always keep nets and other stuff in diluted esha 2000

They are fed on King British tropical flake and spirulina, with microworms and BBS a coulpe of times a week and some veggies- shelled peas and cucumber a couple of times a week.


I don’t know where to go from here. Why are they getting so thin so quickly and not responding to the fin rot treatment? Could it be Hexamita with fin rot as a secondary? I havent seem any pitting or holes though or stringy poo, though one female seemed to have dents in her sides. They have had so many different meds, poor things- I want to give them the right one and knock this on the head for good.
I am happy to order meds from the US if there is something better over there.

Can anyone help with a diagnosis and treatment please, I am getting desperate.

 

[black angel]

If theres just guppies then i would try aqualibrium salt. This gives the fish their minerals and with females its important after birth. The shimmying suggests it as well. The instructions will be on the packet.

 

[guppyfan77]

HI black angel. I have some ordinary aquarium salt but have never used it- will that do? How much salt do I use is it 5ml per gallon ? Will salt alone cure problem this do you think?

If I use the salt - can meds be used at the same time?
Thanks

 

[black angel]

I would stop using the meds and switch to the salt. Do a 50% water change and add 1 level teaspoon per gallon predissolved in some boiled water and add another teaspoon per gallon 12 hours later. So when you come to do water changes make a note of how many gallons you take out so you can calculate how many teaspoons to put back in.
I think this on its own should help your guppies recover.

 

[guppyfan77]

Thanks very much for your help. So shall I use the ordinary aquarium salt I already have or is the Aqualibrum much better?

 

[diademhill]

What else is in the tank? Plants, decor, substrate?

Guppies are prone to infection by Tetrahymena, a cilliate, so the bacterial meds won't have helped, and the symptoms fit.

Many importers use a potassium permanganate dip for newly arrived guppies but it sounds like yours didn't get this.

You could try & treat the tank with a med that kills cilliates & protozoans - I would add carbon to your filter for 24 hours & then try Protazin.

Salt won't hurt the guppies but build up gradually over several days to rather than adding a teaspoon per gallon straight off.

 

[black angel]

Thats a .3% solution. To get to 1% that would be adding ten teaspoons to a gallon, its important to remember the dot.

You can use aquarium salt this will kill parasites as well so no need for the additional meds just yet.

To get to .1% add 1 level teaspoon which equates to around 3 grammes per gallon of water.
12 hours later add another level teaspoon per gallon to get to .2%
and for killing the majority of parasites, 12 hours later add another level teaspoon per gallon to bring you to .3%.

If you have live plants then you will need to take them out as they can only withstand salt to .2 for a short time.

Your fish can live well with the .3 for a couple of weeks which wll be enough time to kill the parasites if theres any.
When taking the salt out do it in stages so as not to stress the fish.

.1% has a tonic effect.
.2% helps breathing and is useful through nitrite stages. Also good for preventing fungal attacks on damaged fins and body and aids healing of finrot.
.3% Kills most parasites but chilodonalla may need higher salt levels, though chilo isnt your problem.

Salt does nothing for bacterial diseases.

 

[guppyfan77]

Since I stripped the tank down there is no substrate now, they did have coral sand til a few days ago. I thought I would leave the bottom clear to make cleaning the tank easier.

They have a few watersprite and 2 java ferns and a moss ball. I took out a lot of the plants so i could observe them better.
I have 2 endlers in there with them. Do they get this Tetrahymena problem too and will they be ko with the salt?
Forgot to say that the first thing I tried was Protozin. All the meds I have tried appear to help short term - but it always comes back. Should I try it again?

 

[black angel]

You can use protozin and salt together if you wanted, but i think you should give the salt a try on its own for two weeks.
what do you feed them?
is your water hard or soft as livebearers dont do well with soft water, though the gravel would have helped there. Have you noticed an increase in the symptoms after taking the gravel out?
Do you know your Kh and Gh levels?
What is the filter you are using?

 

[guppyfan77]

Thanks, I will try the salt on its own.
No I havent noticed any increase in symptoms as none in the tank have it at the moment as I have lost all the ones that did have it. On past history though it will crop up again as these F's mature. This is what has happened before - the fry all survive , so these are youngsters from the dead mothers. aaaahhh.

Our water is on the acid side - its around 5.8, so I thats why I used the coral sand to raise the pH to 7.5. I dont want to use pH up - so the water can be either 5.8 which I think is too low, or 7.3-7.5 which is what the coral sand takes it to. I stand the waterchange water in a bin with coral sand and an airstone for a couple of days to get rid of any gasses and raise the pH before warming it and adding to the tank.

I dont know the GH and KH

I am using 2 Fluval 1's in the same tank, as one is not enough and the Fluval 2 has too strong a current for them. I could use a sponge filter if that would be better.

They are fed on King British tropical flake 60%and spirulina flake 40%as a basic diet. Each day they have one or two of the following too - microworms, BBS, some veggies- shelled blanched peas and cucumber. Also frozen daphnia as a treat about once a week.

 

[black angel]

Filtration is good so dont change it, i take it you just rinse the media in old tank water?
As for raising the ph, a good way is with bicarbonate of soda as that raises the kh level to buffer the ph better. A bit like the gravel did.
You would need to add it slowly to a bucket and test all the time to see how much gets you a higher ph but once thats done then you can get a couple of buckets but water changes are a bit slower.

 

[guppyfan77]

HI again. Please dont take offence black angel - but I found this article yesterday re the use of salt. http/www.badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article22.html

 

[black angel]

I agree with most of that and in fact know most of it. I also think that using salt is a great natural healer and parasiticide and its entirely up to you if you want to use it.
We as humans need salt in our diet.
In fact most animals need salt and will go out their way to find it.
I am careful about which fish i recommend it for and why. I know salt doesnt help with osmosis but that epsom salt does and have seen the result, which he doesnt mention.
What you read on any forum and any article is up to you but ive seen the benefits myself with using tonic salts on livebearers and goldfish and wouldnt repeat it if i didnt.
he isnt saying not to use it though but its like the meds that are out there, most of those dont work either and you should try everything to see what does.
So, its up to you.