Please Dont Hurt Me Xd

[Ashley1991]

hey all

i am currently looking for a fish tank around 60 liters (might win one on ebay tommorow ) and i need a bit of help setting it up

ok i have a 190 liter tank and a 60 liter tank already with plants in but i dont dose ferts to the 60 liter but do every now and again to the big tank and neither has co2

sooo i wanted to give co2 and ferts a go.

i have decided to go DIY co2 i cant afford a pressurised system and i understand i need to get it up to 30(ppm?) for best results and i think i need above 0.5 watts of light per gallon?

i need to buy

potassium nitrate
Potassium Phosphate
Traces - i have some TPN+ already

i dont have a GH test kit i do have a KH kit and just tested some warm water right out the tap and the kh is 1, 2 at a push so i dont know if that will show i have a low GH and will need to buy Seachem Equilibrium as well?

and then i was just going to mix them up and dose like the article on this forum a link here if you dont know which i mean http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=104737&st=0

is that everything?

oh yeah substrate! whats best for my situation? in my other 2 tanks i have gravel in one and sand in another but im guessing i would be best going for a planting subsrate?

cheers all

ash

 

[SuperColey1]

OK sort 2 bottles:
http/www.aquatic-eden.com/2006/10/build-your-own-yeast-co2-generator.html

Use a weak mixture in the bottles:
http/www.aquatic-eden.com/2006/09/diy-co2-recipe-duration-vs-intensity.html

Mix one when you start, the other a week later and then change aech fortnightly alternating. so week 1 change A then next week change B then the following week A etc.

Decide on a diffusion method. I would go for a pair of small nano diffusers:
http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250328076683&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Connect the 2 bottles to 1 diffuser and put it in the tank somewhere the bubbles get carried around well. Use them alternately and clean the one you take out ready for the following week.

For ferts you already have TPN+ (definately TPN+ and not just TPN?) so no need for the Pot nit and pot phos at this stage.

Not sure about the equilibrium. Personally I wouldn't have tested and therefore wouldn't have considered it. I probably wouldn't bother if I had tested I don't pay much attention to hardness.

Aim for 30ppm but don't worry too much if you are lower. As long as you get consistency.

You will want a drop checker, some 4dKH and a bromo blue based Ph test kit.
http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/Brand-New-Drop-Checker-Set-pH-Test-Drop-Big-Sale-/250359080156?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&hash=item3a4a9064dc

http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/cal-aqua-reference-solution-60ml-p-1992.html

With solely TPN+ I wouldn't bother with the method in that article. Its a very good method but not needed for TPN+. I would just dose 2ml daily and do 20% weekly water changes.

As you are dosing Tropica then why not use Tropica Plant Substrate too. It goes under a 'cap'. the cap is whichever substrate you want to see on top. So sand, fine gravel etc.
http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/tropica-aqua-care-plant-substrate-25l-p-1119.html

Squeeze the dirt out of the sponges of one of your other filters (or both) into the new empty tank first then put the substrate down.

Lights aim at the 1WPG region. I would suggest 2 x 15W T8 with reflectors. A combo of 4000ishK and 7000ishK. the standard Arcadia ones will be around these regions but can't remember their 'new names' Classica or something. There's a pink one and a green one. Together they will 'blend' into a nearish daylight colour.

Photoperiod start at 6 hours and work up weekly to 8-9 hours

is that everything?

Ermmm......... Plants?

AC

 

[Ashley1991]

thanks for the in depth reply its made things alot simpler for me and i appreciate it

so your saying JUST use TPN+ as fert? (it is TPN+ took me ages to find most were just TPN)

and i though if you had a very low GH then your PH will crash when you add carbon dioxide? i read it is ment to be above 3 to stop the PH crashing my water has i would say 1 not 2 like i said =/ or will it be ok? i can always just add the carbon dioxide to a empty tank and see what happens to the PH i suppose

i think ill use the substrate you suggested does it really make a big difference to plants? just curious

Cheers all

ash

 

[SuperColey1]

Ther is no such thing as 'Ph' crash. The Ph dropping is a reaction from whatever the crash is but Ph dropping does not mean that a crash is happening.

CO2 will artificially drop the Ph but the KH will remain the same. If the KH and Ph drop rapidly then there is a problem but this will not happen from the reduction in Ph from CO2 addition.

An extract from another forum, I have copied the text as you need to register to view this forum. It is actually quite a new thread from someone on this forum so it was the first one that came up.

The thread is here if you choose to register:
http/www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12700:


The best advice I can give you is to completely forget about all of this. Adding CO2 lowers the pH of the water in the tank but fish don't really care about pH. The pH numbers that you see just happen to be the pH of the particular stream that the fish were captured in. It does not mean that they have problems with lower or higher pH. In fact, many South American fish will only spawn when the pH drops to low levels.

Your KH and GH are fine. There is absolutely no reason at all to make any adjustments at this time. Not having to worry about these makes life much easier. Worry more about CO2 injection techniques, flow/distribution, maintenance, cleanliness and nutrient application. These are the areas upon which to expend the majority of your energy.

So don't worry about your Ph. Black water fish like discus, tetras etc are used to living in waters as low as 3.7ph!!!

If it is anything it is a KH crash. When the KH drops so will the Ph but CO2 will not affect the KH.

Adding the CO2 to an empty tank will do nothing other than let you learn how it works. the Ph will drop in the region of 1Ph. The KH will remain the same.

The way that substrate works is this. It is made up of organic clays. It has high CEC (cation exchange capacity) what this means is that the nutrients you add can be soaked up by the substrate and vice versa it can release nutrient when needed. Its like a sponge and soaks up all the goodies.

p.s. the reply I copied in above was for a user with 3 KH. Dave Spencer on here injects like a demon with 0KH!!!!

AC

 

[coldcazzie]

Never mind. Having a blonde moment!

 

[Ashley1991]

SuperColey1 your a legend i understand now there is some very conflicting stuff out there on the net so you made life alot easier xD

thanks you

Ash


ps. i was going to decide on plants after i figured out how to set this whole thing up so can i now look at plants that are moderate lighting?

 

[SuperColey1]

Yeah start with cheapies, Try anything. See what works and what doesn't for you and then you will build up a 'base' of plants you can use in the future if you wish to move onto full on aquascaping.

If you just go for the ones that people say are easy then you have a smaller quantity of 'paint' for future pictures.

Also whilst learning you'll find the plants YOU can grow. Doesn't mean you can't grow the ones you fail on. However they may be out of reach at the beginning. Over time you can try and try again until your 'paintbox' fills up.

Think of it as starting with MS Paint. You only have 20 colours per 'palette'. Over time you'll be on something much more powerful with a much larger pallette

Or you can go my way and say 'can't be bothered with the others' and just stick to Anubias, Crypts and Ferns. lol

Oh and make sure you get a n external filter with approx 600lph turnover or more.

I'll answer the myth you'll probs come back with before you do No the fish and plants will not be blown about all over the place.

The plants will like it and the fish more than likley will be in the high flow areas more than the calm areas.

AC

 

[coldcazzie]

I have a question: would DIY Co2 be substantial enough to dose a Rio 240 to 30ppm? Sorry, to hijack your thread Ashley, but I'm also thinking about delving much deeper into planted once I move, changing substrate etc and this thread has been really helpful, but my tank is much bigger, so don't know if DIY will be enough or if I have no choice but to do a pressurised system?

 

[SuperColey1]

Too big I'm afriad. Would need 10 coke bottles and someone watching the fish all day to make sure that their averages weren't peaking too high if you get there.

DIY is an option for all tanks but the larger the tank the more complicated it gets and it just renders the 'money saving' obsolete.

Small tanks with small DIY is a saving.

Consider changing 10 bottles. thats 5kg of sugar each week, a whole pack of yeast each week and one hell of an effort.

After 6 months of that you have spent the same as pressurised would've cost. If money is that tight then go non CO2 or non planted for 6 months and save up the £5 you would've spent a week

AC

 

[coldcazzie]

Right, thanks that answers at least one of my questions about what I can possibly do!

I have another now: (last one for now I promise!) how deep do plants need the rooting substrate to be. There's a guy on here who makes slate caves and I was considering the idea of a tiered cave system that also had sections for planting in on each level, but they'd only be about 2 inches deep - would that be enough or not? If not then I'll scrap that as an idea too!

 

[SuperColey1]

Lol. Roots are not rigid. Think about it. Weeds can grow on 2mm of soil, their roots travel through the smallest of crack. The substrate depth is user defined, the roots will conform to whatever is there. 2" is a decent start though

AC

 

[Ashley1991]

cheers super coley looking into plants now you have been a great help

and its ok i dont mind people asking questions on my threads means i learn something without having to search lol

ash

 

[SuperColey1]

no problem I learnt the same way. I was at your stage only four years ago and have made many mistakes trying to cut corners along the way.

If I had not cut those corners I would have spent £1000 on something else other than mistkaes Advice save YOU money but you have to learn how to follow the advice and also to adapt it to suit your own system. No 2 setups are the same even with identical initial setup

So us guys (and gals) can give you the 'ideal' startup. We can hold your hand along the curve but even we don't know where that curve will go and in some cases how to correct the curve. Its a case of you working too

AC

 

[Ashley1991]

wow a thousand pounds thats alot of money xD i wont be cutting no corners then! lol

and yeah this forum is great for help from people who know whhat there on about but at the end of the day anything can happen!

ash

 

[SuperColey1]

No exaggeration. Conservative estimate if anything

Along the way I tried all sorts of things, upgrade lights, try to do nutrafins, loads of different plants, all sorts of nonsense gadgetry.

If I had just left the stock lighting as I would now and set the tank up as it stands now it would have cost me £600 total. the full setup including the tank, equipment, fish plants etc.

My conservative estimate is I actually spent £1500 over those first 2 years. Nearer £2000 leaving my bank account but some back from selling the items I shouldn't have bought in the first place.

As a guide this is what it would cost me now to setup what I have:
125ltr Tank £75 - ebay
Lights - £30 - tubes and reflectors only as I should've used the 1.1WPG already with the tank
External Filter £80
External Heater £30
CO2 full setup - £130 (includes filled cannister)
Glass Lily pipes £30
TOTAL EQUIPMENT - £375

Substrate - Tropica + playsand £22
Plants - £100
Fish £60
Hardscape - £40
Fertiliser - £25
Fish Food - £15
TOTAL 'inside Tank' - £255

So the waste was upgrading to high lighting then downgrading to medium lighting before returning to low lighting. lol

Trying for a couple of years to make do with yeast (because pressurised is too expensive) before buying pressurised by which time I had spent more on sugar and yeast than the pressurised cost. lol

Trying to use cheap external filters and refusing to pay the Eheim price before finally buying an Eheim after no end of problems with the cheaper ones.

Trying lots of cheap snake oil ferts before settling on
TPN+ or dry ferts.

As a learning curve for yourself her is a link to my first journal on here so you can see that I was as naive as any newbie then. You can also see I didn't understand what I do now and followed what was the common belief back then by many. You can also see my problems there too 10 pages but well worth the read to avoid the 'shortcut' mistakes.

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/172761-supercoleys-first-planted-tank-adventure/

AC