Ph Question

[Mamba]

This is confusing me somewhat!! I have tested the PH level using my API Freshwater Master Test Kit (Liquid Test Kit). I clean and dry the test tubes before testing the water obviously. That piece of bogwood by the way was only just added about a week ago.

I have four tanks, details as follows:

2ft 50 ish Litre I use as my quarantine tank. At first I had an under gravel filter but then got hold of a Fluval U2 Flter so basically unplugged the undergravel. The decoration is a large lump of bogwood, dorset pea gravel and a couple of small rocks and a plastic plant. It's showing up as PH6.

Small 3Ft Tank. 100 Litre. Mini Hillstream tank. Various rocks, couple of Echinodoras plants, dorset pea gravel.PH is 7.6.

Larger 3Ft tank, 160 Litre. Two large lumps of bogwood, 1 x larger rock and one medium sized and an anubias plant one of the pieces of bogwood. PH 7.

5ft Tank - 200 Litre. Red Gravel and an assortment of duct, PVC Pipes and soil/vent pipes. Sounds strange I know!! PH 7.2

Now, my tap water ordinarily fluctuates between 7.2-7.4.

My question is obvious - why the big difference between my 2ft and my other tanks?

The 2ft isn't PH 6 isn't a freak accident either as there are four more tanks in the house, they are not mine though, a 3ft and a 4ft and 2 x 2.5ft tanks all registering as PH 6.
They are all decorated differently with either white gravel or Dorset Pea Gravel. Those tanks never had under gravel filters.

I'm more than a little confused. How do I get the PH level up gently as I have a Jaguar Catfish in there at the moment?

Help please as my brain is melting as I can't work it out!!

 

[DrRob]

The lower pH tank will have some form of acid donor in it. My suspicion is the wood releasing humic acid or similar in the same way that peat would in a filter. There are a few other possible sources of organic acids that could do it, including mulm under the old filter plates, but that wouldn't explain the other tanks.

Some wood though doesn't break down as fast as some other pieces so will have a lot less effect.

 

[Mamba]

It's really stumping me. I had the 2ft tank with only some stones, dorset pea gravel as a very small hill stream set up temporarily for my Sinibotia Robusta. When it had the undergravel filter it then was still PH6 and has consistently been exactly that. It had no wood in it at all at that stage. The wood is only recently added for the benefit of giving my Jaguar Catfish somewhere to feel safe and hide in it's recess.

Giving it has been used as a quarantine tank up until I got my loaches I am worried about still using it as such as the fish will have to get accustomed to it's low ph and then have to get acustomed to a ph level much higher numerically, anywhere from 7 to 7.6.

And all the water even comes from the same bath tap!!

 

[gregswimm]

CO2 is one of the biggest factor here. The atmospheric CO2 will impact the amount of dissolved CO2 in your tank.

If you are topping off with tap water your are essentially adding buffer to the tank.

 

[gregswimm]

CO2 is one of the biggest factor here. The atmospheric CO2 will impact the amount of dissolved CO2 in your tank, as well #16##### amount of stock, plants and many other factors.

My tanks have a predictable drop of .2-.6 when my lights go out. KH in the tanks are from 2dKH to 9dKH and as expected the tanks with the lower KH will have larger swings in pH.

If you are topping off with tap water your are essentially adding buffer to the tank.

You should know that pH is the measure of dissolved hydrogen ions aka protons in a solution.

To keep yourself sane, just worry about measuring the KH.

KH (carbonate hardness) measured in dKH - degrees of carbonate hardness - colloquially known as buffer/alkalinity - the measure of carbonates and bicarbonate anions that enable water to neutralize an acid; major ones being calcium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate(bicarbonates only contribute to half.

There is GH too, but you won't have to worry about that too much unless you are running a planted tank or dosing something out of the ordinary.
GH - measured in dGH - degrees of general hardness - water hardness which is comprised metals such as magnesium and calcium ions and does not directly influence pH.


You can even go so far as to roughly measure dissolved CO2 if you know the KH. Only really useful in planted tanks.

 

[Mamba]

Chemistry was never my strong point. I'm a little lost truth be told with this.

My tanks are all in the same room, the 2ft tank is within 2 ft of the larger 3ft tank that has a completely different ph level.

My ph level seems to remain pretty constant, this 2ft tank stays at ph6.

So, if I understand the above correctly if the Co2 level is different then can I put a greater amount of oxygen into the tank and change the ph by doing so? Or am I being REALLY daft?

My worry is two fold. I have been using that tank as a quarantine tank and worry that putting fish from ph level 6 and straight into ph 7-7.6 might shock the fish. Have I got lucky and not lost any? Am I stressing the fish by
doing this?

My second worry is that I have a Jaguar Catfish in there which seems to be doing very well. They prefer lower ph as they are wild caught specimens. I would like to get some more wild caught fish, maybe a pair of Apistogramma Norberti and another Jaguar Catfish in there too and then transfer them to a 4ft (cycled) tank but will have to keep the ph low for these fish. Am I likely to have a 4ft tank that will be ph 7 and upwards?

If I can find out th hardness (kh) that these fish are used to is this more important than the ph for them?

 

[Billsfan905]

I think a pH of 6.0 is considered a pH crash, not just a low pH.
Your beneficial bacteria will die at such an acidic pH.

My tap water is very inconsistent as well. It comes out at 7.6 and somehow always crashed down to 6.0-6.4, without any wood in my tanks.
To fix my pH I added crushed coral into my filter as a buffer. It has been working incredibly and has been keeping my pH now at a constant 7.4-7.8!

I suggest you get crushed coral, and possibly remove the wood for a bit just to see if it affects the pH.

 

[Mamba]

I might try that too but i'm not convinced it's the tap water alone that's causing it tbh otherwise i'd have similar problems with my 3 and 5ft tanks, they are all PH 7+.

I've been reading up and I on ph crashes and it kills off the nitrifying bacteria and yet every week I check the water and it registers no ammonia and no nitrite! How can this be?

I haven't got a test kit to test kh, i'll get hold of one but I assume the water here is soft as there is hardly any lime scaling on my kettle.

 

[snazy]

First of all I would put a glass of tap water uncovered to stay overnight or 24 hours and then test the Ph of the water, that's your actual P

2ft 50 ish Litre I use as my quarantine tank. At first I had an under gravel filter but then got hold of a Fluval U2 Flter so basically unplugged the undergravel. The decoration is a large lump of bogwood, dorset pea gravel and a couple of small rocks and a plastic plant. It's showing up as PH6.

At Ph of 6ppm, depending on the temperature of the tank, the ammonia is in non-toxic to fish form. What test brand are you using to measure ammonia?
What is the NitrAte reading of the tank before water change?

Small 3Ft Tank. 100 Litre. Mini Hillstream tank. Various rocks, couple of Echinodoras plants, dorset pea gravel.PH is 7.6.

Is it possible that one of these rocks is raising your Ph?

Larger 3Ft tank, 160 Litre. Two large lumps of bogwood, 1 x larger rock and one medium sized and an anubias plant one of the pieces of bogwood. PH 7.

Bogwood can slightly lower the Ph in softer water(lower KH), so that reads about right too.

5ft Tank - 200 Litre. Red Gravel and an assortment of duct, PVC Pipes and soil/vent pipes. Sounds strange I know!! PH 7.2

No wood in this one and reads about your tap Ph.

Now, my tap water ordinarily fluctuates between 7.2-7.4.

What brand is your Ph test?

The 2ft isn't PH 6 isn't a freak accident either as there are four more tanks in the house, they are not mine though, a 3ft and a 4ft and 2 x 2.5ft tanks all registering as PH 6.

Interesting. What's their ammonia reading if they've happen to test? How old are the tanks? What's the nitrAte reading? Are they injecting CO2?

 

[Mamba]

First of all I would put a glass of tap water uncovered to stay overnight or 24 hours and then test the Ph of the water, that's your actual P

I didn't realise, the measurements I took were literally straight from the tap, so i'll do that now. Cheers.

What test brand are you using to measure ammonia?

It's an API Freshwater Liquid Test kit.

What is the NitrAte reading of the tank before water change?

Not sure off hand as it's been a few weeks since i've tested the Nitrate. Will get those done and up tomorrow.

Is it possible that one of these rocks is raising your Ph?

Don't think so tbh as most of those rocks came from the 2ft tank - it is possible though.

Interesting. What's their ammonia reading if they've happen to test? How old are the tanks? What's the nitrAte reading? Are they injecting CO2?

They have problems with ammonia in those tanks though, although, their Nitrite levels are typically. Those tanks are newer than my tanks and are in all honesty slightly overstocked too. I don't know what their Nitrate levels are but will check all tomorrow and get back to you here. None of the tanks are injecting Co2.

 

[gregswimm]

I think a pH of 6.0 is considered a pH crash, not just a low pH.
Your beneficial bacteria will die at such an acidic pH.

My tap water is very inconsistent as well. It comes out at 7.6 and somehow always crashed down to 6.0-6.4, without any wood in my tanks.
To fix my pH I added crushed coral into my filter as a buffer. It has been working incredibly and has been keeping my pH now at a constant 7.4-7.8!

I suggest you get crushed coral, and possibly remove the wood for a bit just to see if it affects the pH.

A pH of 6.0 is not a crash. It would only be a crash if you had a regular pH of say 7.8 and you wake up one day and find it at 6.0. That's a crash.

Chemistry was never my strong point. I'm a little lost truth be told with this.

My tanks are all in the same room, the 2ft tank is within 2 ft of the larger 3ft tank that has a completely different ph level.

My ph level seems to remain pretty constant, this 2ft tank stays at ph6.

So, if I understand the above correctly if the Co2 level is different then can I put a greater amount of oxygen into the tank and change the ph by doing so? Or am I being REALLY daft?

My worry is two fold. I have been using that tank as a quarantine tank and worry that putting fish from ph level 6 and straight into ph 7-7.6 might shock the fish. Have I got lucky and not lost any? Am I stressing the fish by
doing this?

My second worry is that I have a Jaguar Catfish in there which seems to be doing very well. They prefer lower ph as they are wild caught specimens. I would like to get some more wild caught fish, maybe a pair of Apistogramma Norberti and another Jaguar Catfish in there too and then transfer them to a 4ft (cycled) tank but will have to keep the ph low for these fish. Am I likely to have a 4ft tank that will be ph 7 and upwards?

If I can find out th hardness (kh) that these fish are used to is this more important than the ph for them?

No, oxygen will not impact pH, it doesn't counteract CO2. If you want to keep your pH more stable increase the carbonate hardness (KH). Generally fish that like acidic water like a low KH ('soft' water will be influenced more by acids like tannin from wood and decomposition of wastes). Raise the KH of a tank will in turn raise the pH by neutralizing acids. A good KH level for fish that like 'soft' water with a low pH would be in the neighborhood of 2dKH to 5dKH. Anything lower than 2dKH will cause water to be quite unstable and have very large swings in chemistry.

If you are worried about stressing fish when transferring them from the quarantine to the display, then drip acclimate them. Put the fish in a bucket with 1/4 to 1/3 full of the water from the tank it comes from. Siphon water with an airline tube from the tank it is going to, but tie a knot in the airline tube so that the water drips into the bucket. Fill the bucket up once remove half of the water in the bucket and fill it up again, the fish should then be ready to go in the display. This should take about 60 min to 90 min. Letting it take too long will cause ammonia to build up.

Generally I recommend just not messing with the chemistry unless you are using RO water or your tap has a KH under 2dKH. Most water companies already add buffer to the water to preserve their pipes. If you are having chronic low pH, check your nitrates. If they are over 30ppm and you do weekly water changes, then I would check the tank and filter for fish poo build up or rotting plants.

As far as wood goes, it tends to release tannin into the water. This is the yellow/tea color your water turns when you add a new piece of wood. Tannins are a week acid and have a relatively small impact on pH (compared to strong acids like hydrogen sulphate) I highly recommend having tannin in tanks with fish from acidic waters as tannin helps bolster their immune system.

First of all I would put a glass of tap water uncovered to stay overnight or 24 hours and then test the Ph of the water, that's your actual P

I didn't realise, the measurements I took were literally straight from the tap, so i'll do that now. Cheers.

No, leave it uncovered and add an airstone. This way the gasses can come to equilibrium with the air of the room. This will give you a more accurate reading of what the pH will be of the water in your house.

 

[snazy]

First of all I would put a glass of tap water uncovered to stay overnight or 24 hours and then test the Ph of the water, that's your actual P

I didn't realise, the measurements I took were literally straight from the tap, so i'll do that now. Cheers.

What test brand are you using to measure ammonia?

It's an API Freshwater Liquid Test kit.

What is the NitrAte reading of the tank before water change?

Not sure off hand as it's been a few weeks since i've tested the Nitrate. Will get those done and up tomorrow.

Is it possible that one of these rocks is raising your Ph?

Don't think so tbh as most of those rocks came from the 2ft tank - it is possible though.

Interesting. What's their ammonia reading if they've happen to test? How old are the tanks? What's the nitrAte reading? Are they injecting CO2?

They have problems with ammonia in those tanks though, although, their Nitrite levels are typically. Those tanks are newer than my tanks and are in all honesty slightly overstocked too. I don't know what their Nitrate levels are but will check all tomorrow and get back to you here. None of the tanks are injecting Co2.

Ammonia problems in a Ph of 6ppm is typical, but more than likely it doesn't affect the fish as it's in NH4 form. Nitrites are probably 0 because the ammonia to nitrIte bacteria is having a nice snooze in that Ph and nitrAtes are either 0 or the tap water reading for the same reason. People do keep fish in a Ph of 6, but when this is based on CO2 injection it's completely different than actual acidic water as CO2 dicreases the Ph but doesn't alter the mineral content(TDS levels) of the water which is the real contributor to calling your water "acidic". That's why Ph swings based on CO2 injection doesn't affect fish. The KH of water mentioned above is just the measure of the capacity of the water to resist a change in pH. Very few people have natural acidic tap drinking water. The water will taste like you a licking a metal pipe and your teeth will fall off

So Ph of 6 is more likely low Kh to buffer the Ph and an issue with the tank causing it to crash.

How old are your tanks about?

 

[Mamba]

Sorry for not getting back earlier, work certainly got in the way.

I forgot to put the glass of tap water out for 24hrs so will have to do that and get the result tomorrow.

I tested the Nitrate levels in all my tanks and they all came up as the same result 80ppm. I checked again just to make sure.

To be honest I can't really say how old the tanks are with any real accuracy. The larger 3ft would be the newest, only a couple of months old, about 3 I think. The 2ft is about 4-5 months. The smaller 3ft would be about 5-6 months and the 5ft would be over 9 months, probably closer to a year tbh.

Thanks all again for the help.

That explained things quite clearly thanks Snazy.

 

[gregswimm]

80 is really high. Nothing over 30. I keep my rift lake cichlid tanks under 20ppm, my planted tank under 30 and my reef tank under 5ppm.

Change your mechanical media, and do 2 50% changes but not in the same day. An excessive amount of rotting material can cause pH to drop and nitrates to stay high.

High nitrates can not only slow animal growth but can make them more susceptible to illness and cause them a great deal of stress. Never feed the fish more then they can eat in 1min. This is especially true with processed flak/pellet food as it is rich in nutrients that if left in the tank will produce lots of pollution and make the fish's poop to lower water quality a significantly.

Nitrate reduction in the water column is directly corralated with the percentage of water changes. At 80ppm doing one 50% change will reduce the level to 40ppm. Another 50% change at 40ppm will then reduce the level to 20ppm.

 

[Mamba]

Tbh it surprised me it was that high. I had in all honesty been concentrating on Ammonia and Nitrite levels and wasn't testing Nitrate levels. I'll do as you say although 50% in one shot may be a problem in the tanks as my tap water seems to be darn cold over the last couple of weeks. i don't like dropping the temp by more than a degree at a time. If it is cumulative as you explain it'll be a slower process but yep, 50% and then again and then both more water changes, i'll start bi weekly and keep a form eye on the Nitrates.

Cheers.