Overwhelmed!

fluffycabbage

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Ive just introduced plants to my 2 tanks, so far so good, the fish love them. but there are a couple which have little brown areas on the leaves. im assuming theyre lacking nutrients going by other recent posts??

anyway, ive been reading this http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=104737&st=0 but i must say im totally overwhelmed by all the things you need just to feed the plants!! do i really need so much stuff? isnt there an easier/cheaper option??
 
Ive just introduced plants to my 2 tanks, so far so good, the fish love them. but there are a couple which have little brown areas on the leaves. im assuming theyre lacking nutrients going by other recent posts??

anyway, ive been reading this http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=104737&st=0 but i must say im totally overwhelmed by all the things you need just to feed the plants!! do i really need so much stuff? isnt there an easier/cheaper option??

I think you've gotten a little confused by the article.

Before I go into a little explanation I should ask a couple of things.

1 - Are we talking about a fully planted tank (75% or more substrate coverage looking from above the tank) or not.

If not then you don't need to add anything, the fish will supply all the plants need.

2 - Are you intending to have a turbo growth pressurised CO2 injected hi tec tank?

If not then you don't need that article although it is explaining what things the plants need.

Secondly even without pictures I would be 95% sure your plant is a microsorum sp (fern) The dark brown dots are where the mother plant produces plantlets. Don't get too excited as normally only leaves that are suffering give off plantlets or maybe the other way around that when the leaf produces plantlets the mother leaf suffers. I remove the mother leaf as soon as I see any plantlets as it is depriving the plant of nutrients and can look unsightly to boot.

Now onto the article:

EI is one of the simplest and most cost effective ways of fertilising. Yes it may look daunting as you need to buy several powders BUT those powders will last an awful lot longer than the premix off the shelf ferts for the same cash.

Basically you mix 2 solutions.

1 is macro that is a mix of KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) and KH2PO4 (Potassium Phosphate) Some mix K2SO4 (Potassium Sulphate) but in reality this is nearly always a waste as there is Potassium in both the other products.

2 is the micros which are 'trace elements' mainly metals and you only need tiny doses of this. You can buy the powder and mix which is more cost effective or just buy something like Tropica Plant Nutrition TPN (not TPN+) and use that.

That is the 2 solutions sorte.

Now what happens is that you have a start day i.e. Monday and therefore dose macros on Monday/Wednesday/Friday. You dose micros on Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday. On Sunday you dose nothing and then do a 50% water change and then start again on Monday.

You look at the chart on the article. Find the range of size your tank is in and it will tell you the quantity of solution (or neat dry salts if you choose not to make solutions) to dose.

That is it EI is simple.

The beauty of buying those powders is that you alter the recipe to follow a method like PMDD+PO4 which is leaner (You dose less) and therefore you can do smaller water changes. This however is very slightly riskier.

The aim of EI is to make nutrients unlimited. The plants cannot run out and therefore if there are problems they are to do with something else (namely light, CO2 or circulation.)

PMDD+PO4 aims to reduce the nutrients added to a level which should be 'just enough' rather than excess. It is very slightly riskier because there is a small chance that it could be just under what your plant and system need and therefore you may then see defficiencies. However it is a very small chance as tap water should nearly always bridge the gap r.e. nutrients as it has some in it too.

So there you go. Much simpler than you thought. Most definately cheaper than any off the shelf fert in the long term and much more adaptable to your specific tank's needs.

If you are not wanting to go hi tec CO2 and high light then you don't need this. You can get by with low light, no CO2, minimal or no water changes by using the fish waste as a fert and just briging the gap a little with some KNO3 which will supply just a little more N and K. There should be enough of everything else from the waste and fish food.

If you do go the lo tec route you only have to add a small amount of KNO3 every 2-4 weeks or more. You will see when if you have anubias ;) When your tank goes short of P Anubias will get green 'spots'

AC
 
Ive just introduced plants to my 2 tanks, so far so good, the fish love them. but there are a couple which have little brown areas on the leaves. im assuming theyre lacking nutrients going by other recent posts??

anyway, ive been reading this http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=104737&st=0 but i must say im totally overwhelmed by all the things you need just to feed the plants!! do i really need so much stuff? isnt there an easier/cheaper option??

I think you've gotten a little confused by the article.

Before I go into a little explanation I should ask a couple of things.

1 - Are we talking about a fully planted tank (75% or more substrate coverage looking from above the tank) or not.

If not then you don't need to add anything, the fish will supply all the plants need.

2 - Are you intending to have a turbo growth pressurised CO2 injected hi tec tank?

If not then you don't need that article although it is explaining what things the plants need.

Secondly even without pictures I would be 95% sure your plant is a microsorum sp (fern) The dark brown dots are where the mother plant produces plantlets. Don't get too excited as normally only leaves that are suffering give off plantlets or maybe the other way around that when the leaf produces plantlets the mother leaf suffers. I remove the mother leaf as soon as I see any plantlets as it is depriving the plant of nutrients and can look unsightly to boot.

Now onto the article:

EI is one of the simplest and most cost effective ways of fertilising. Yes it may look daunting as you need to buy several powders BUT those powders will last an awful lot longer than the premix off the shelf ferts for the same cash.

Basically you mix 2 solutions.

1 is macro that is a mix of KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) and KH2PO4 (Potassium Phosphate) Some mix K2SO4 (Potassium Sulphate) but in reality this is nearly always a waste as there is Potassium in both the other products.

2 is the micros which are 'trace elements' mainly metals and you only need tiny doses of this. You can buy the powder and mix which is more cost effective or just buy something like Tropica Plant Nutrition TPN (not TPN+) and use that.

That is the 2 solutions sorte.

Now what happens is that you have a start day i.e. Monday and therefore dose macros on Monday/Wednesday/Friday. You dose micros on Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday. On Sunday you dose nothing and then do a 50% water change and then start again on Monday.

You look at the chart on the article. Find the range of size your tank is in and it will tell you the quantity of solution (or neat dry salts if you choose not to make solutions) to dose.

That is it EI is simple.

The beauty of buying those powders is that you alter the recipe to follow a method like PMDD+PO4 which is leaner (You dose less) and therefore you can do smaller water changes. This however is very slightly riskier.

The aim of EI is to make nutrients unlimited. The plants cannot run out and therefore if there are problems they are to do with something else (namely light, CO2 or circulation.)

PMDD+PO4 aims to reduce the nutrients added to a level which should be 'just enough' rather than excess. It is very slightly riskier because there is a small chance that it could be just under what your plant and system need and therefore you may then see defficiencies. However it is a very small chance as tap water should nearly always bridge the gap r.e. nutrients as it has some in it too.

So there you go. Much simpler than you thought. Most definately cheaper than any off the shelf fert in the long term and much more adaptable to your specific tank's needs.

If you are not wanting to go hi tec CO2 and high light then you don't need this. You can get by with low light, no CO2, minimal or no water changes by using the fish waste as a fert and just briging the gap a little with some KNO3 which will supply just a little more N and K. There should be enough of everything else from the waste and fish food.

If you do go the lo tec route you only have to add a small amount of KNO3 every 2-4 weeks or more. You will see when if you have anubias ;) When your tank goes short of P Anubias will get green 'spots'

AC

well this is my tank today, and i'd say i'd like it to double the plant coverage (as in let the ones which are already there grow) but no more. so that might be 50% by then. Ish.

P1030767.jpg


this is the problem with one of the plants - the others dont have any problems (yet)
(sorry for poor pics!)
P1030788.jpg
P1030790.jpg
can you see the yellow spots on the front leaves, and the black patches in the back? theyve appeared in the last 2 days.

as for the whole fert thing if i do a big plant setup, yep it seems a little easier to understand now, thanks.

so basically because im not gonna go mental with plants in the tank, i dont need to put in extra co2. just some KNO3 every couple of weeks? How does fish waste become a fert? Do i need to not clear up their poo then? (im sure i'll be directed to a post explaining that now lol)

thanks for all your help, definitely doesnt seem as daunting now! :good:
 
You can go non CO2 enriched and do pretty well, things grow, just slow............
Simple and easy to care for, if you want more growth, you will need more involvement.

Most fall into the latter group.
Depends on your goal.

Learning curve seems steep, maybe it is.........but in practice, it's fairly easy if you are patient.
Take your time, learn.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
You can go non CO2 enriched and do pretty well, things grow, just slow............
Simple and easy to care for, if you want more growth, you will need more involvement.

Most fall into the latter group.
Depends on your goal.

Learning curve seems steep, maybe it is.........but in practice, it's fairly easy if you are patient.
Take your time, learn.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Patience is my middle name ;) I just dont want all my plants to die because of lack of knowledge in the first few weeks, thats all :) I want my plants to grow, but not mega fast. would that be detrimental to the fish though? To not have that many plants?
 
well this is my tank today, and i'd say i'd like it to double the plant coverage (as in let the ones which are already there grow) but no more. so that might be 50% by then. Ish.

I would call yours about 30-40% planted. lot of hardscape but shouldn't be a problem.

this is the problem with one of the plants

Looks like a non aquatic to me. Await confirmation from others.
Definately not a java fern as I thought from the 'black dots' decription.

The've appeared in the last 2 days.
Did you plant all the plants at same time and how long ago? If not very long at all then on confirmation from others I would suggest loosing that one into the bin.

so basically because im not gonna go mental with plants in the tank, i dont need to put in extra co2.
:good: Adding CO2 to a tank is like giving glucose to a human. :hyper: Not needed but provides extra ;) If you don't want that extra (which can bring along its own problems) then don't do it.

just some KNO3 every couple of weeks?
You shouldn't need this with that amount of plants providing you have a standard level of fish (1" per USG+.) You may need it but I very much doubt it.

How does fish waste become a fert?
Fish wee and poo and also food gets missed etc. What the fish poo and wee comes from what they consume. Fish, humans plants etc need the same elements but of course in differing proportions and ratios. We don't care too much about the ratios in the plant's case. We just want there to be enough.

When the fish consumes its food (which has these elements in it) and then poos/wees it out then these elements are in the water column/on the substrate and now the plants get their turn at it :) Thus natural fertiliser much as horse manure can be used for fertiliser. p.s. don't put horse manure in the aquarium :lol:

Do i need to not clear up their poo then?
Just do a water change once a week. Good thing with fish is they will keep on weeing and poing and replenish what is removed ;) For your level of plants you aren't going to be having the plants as a 'natural filter'. They will of course do a lot of work for the filtering but as you aren't going for the heavily planted tank then I don't see any harm removing the dirt on the substrate about 10% or so a week.

(im sure i'll be directed to a post explaining that now lol)

Nope if all you want to do is get athe amount of plants you have already growing and surviving then you needn't be redirected anywhere ;)

thanks for all your help, definitely doesnt seem as daunting now! :good:

No thanks needed. I'm getting the bug back big style and am posting lots ;) You are helping fill my time.

Oh and lucky you to have Tom Barr post in your thread ;) :hooray:
 
crikey another non-aquatic?? ive already lost two this week :S Dont you just hate it when plants are sold at lfs which arent suitable? gggrrrrr (im complaining to the manager at the weekend ;) )

as far as hardscaping goes, the big holey rock will be going into the fry tank i think. i'll prob keep the log thing though. unless i get a beautiful big piece of bogwood next to the other smaller piece :) the stones i'll prob keep, at least until i make some little caves ;)

Oh the waste thing - is it not a little bit unsightly to have waste on the bottom all the time? :/

I think i have java fern in the front, that has some small black spots in it....
 
crikey another non-aquatic?? ive already lost two this week :S Dont you just hate it when plants are sold at lfs which arent suitable? gggrrrrr (im complaining to the manager at the weekend ;) )

I qould wait for someone else to confirm that it is non aquatic. I am not the person for IDing plants. lol

You may find it on plantgeeks.net Click on the plant guide and then there will be a red button for non aquatic plants which contains all the common plants that are mis sold as aquatic.


Oh the waste thing - is it not a little bit unsightly to have waste on the bottom all the time? :/

You would be utilising the 10% water change to concentrate on the bottom. Alternatively do 3 x 5% water changes a week always concentrating on picking up the poop.

To be honest I don't really notice its there :)AC

Anyways I'm off to bed its 2am. lol

AC
 
ah right, i getcha about the poop ;)

couldnt get anywhere with that site :/ looks like another plant, this time in the nursery tank, is rotting. grrrrrrrrrrrr. out it comes. thats 50% of the plants i bought for a so-called reputable lfs now which apparently arent aquatic, but were situated in the middle of all the aquarium tanks :grr:
 
I wouldn't blame the fish store owner. Not many of them are plant people. theybuy the plants in from other companies that 'say' they are aquatic without knowing that they aren't.

If you want true aquatics go to Maidenhead Aquatics or at a push P@H ( I assume you are UK of course. lol

AC
 
But isnt that just mis-selling then? I do blame the store owner, he/she is responsible for all stock in that shop, and if they are mis-selling a product then its their fault (especially if no research has been done before selling)!

Anyway ive just joind ukaps, and posted there about them all :angry: Im really not pleased, as you can tell. I have very little 'extra' money, the fish are taking all of it at the moment - the last thing i need when im trying to make some nice conditions for them is to actually make it worse by putting in soon-to-be rotting plants!! :sad:

Thankd for the advice on those shops - i assume theyre online? My tanks are gonna be almost bare taking out all these plants :rolleyes:
 
Maidehead and Pets at home. they are major chainstores in almost every city. At least they will have true aquatics in.

There are some online sellers but it can get a bit pricey once oyu add in shipping etc.

Normally easier to check on the for sale or swap on each forum and see who is selling loads of different things cheap :)

For now just buy loads of cheap stems even if they are all the same type. the you can 'swap' out a couple of areas each month for plants you do like.


AC
 

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