Over Powered The Parents!

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I don't like anything over 10 gallons for a betta, really, especially for long-finned varieties. People always say "oh but they're much more active in large tanks," but the truth is many of them are compelled to constantly patrol their territory... in larger tanks, this means they look active because they are constantly swimming back and forth, trying to keep an eye on the entire tank. They look happy and active, but in especially large tanks it's actually stressful for them. 10 gallons is plenty of room and they don't have much of a problem seeing from one end of the tank to the other clearly, so they are not as likely to patrol back and forth all day long and can just go on about their business.

Patrolling their terotory is not stressful for them, its the huge weight of lugging an overbred tail around that is.

Its the same with male guppys now days, many have had their tails grown so large that they are now restricted to small tanks with gentle current, overwise their tails shred and the fish dies. I would imagine its quite similar to what happens to fancy bettas too.

 

[SamUK]

if they didnt like space or they didnt like swimming about then surely wouldnt they of died off by now in the ponds there found in in the wild?


i admit i dont kno, jus seems weird to say any fish doesnt like space.



specially as most fish kept on there own realise theres no need to "patrol" a territory after a lil while.

I think its horrid that fish taken from the wild are sold, not 1 gallon bettas though. I think its horrid about the amount of murders per day, not 1 gallon bettas though. I think its horrid about the destruction of a useful rainforest, not 1 gallon bettas.


I got fired up.

dont really kno what you meant there captain. i think its horrid about thosse too but theres not really anything i can do (as im not a murderer etc...honest lol) and there not really on topic...?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

if they didnt like space or they didnt like swimming about then surely wouldnt they of died off by now in the ponds there found in in the wild?


i admit i dont kno, jus seems weird to say any fish doesnt like space.



specially as most fish kept on there own realise theres no need to "patrol" a territory after a lil while.

Its not that they "don't like space" its because so many betta's have been bred to have such huge mutant tails, the fish litterally struggles to live with its long tail in a large normal tank or pond environment. The same is happening to guppys as well because they are being bred to have longer and fancier tails too.

Its part of the human ideal of "beauty" in fish. It would be like us breeding us to have legs twice as long as they are- i'm sure you'd struggle to go far easily with 7ft long legs !

I don't like anything over 10 gallons for a betta, really, especially for long-finned varieties. People always say "oh but they're much more active in large tanks," but the truth is many of them are compelled to constantly patrol their territory... in larger tanks, this means they look active because they are constantly swimming back and forth, trying to keep an eye on the entire tank. They look happy and active, but in especially large tanks it's actually stressful for them. 10 gallons is plenty of room and they don't have much of a problem seeing from one end of the tank to the other clearly, so they are not as likely to patrol back and forth all day long and can just go on about their business.

Patrolling their terotory is not stressful for them, its the huge weight of lugging an overbred tail around that is.

Its the same with male guppys now days, many have had their tails grown so large that they are now restricted to small tanks with gentle current, overwise their tails shred and the fish dies. I would imagine its quite similar to what happens to fancy bettas too.

 

[furryrabbit]

tokis , i wouldnt agree with you there. if having a long tail really was so "stressful" it would make me wonder why they still have such long aquarium lives (2plus years ). and , if you dont like the idea of long tailed bettas .................. buy plakats!

seriously though that comment is going to get a lot of betta keepers fired up.

edit - id love 7feet long legs ............. NBA here i come!

 

[Synirr]

Its not that they "don't like space" its because so many betta's have been bred to have such huge mutant tails, the fish litterally struggles to live with its long tail in a large normal tank or pond environment. The same is happening to guppys as well because they are being bred to have longer and fancier tails too.

Yeah, that's why I added the "especially for long-finned varieties" part... however, I don't think that's the whole story either. I've had several species of wild betta, and not a single one of them patrols the way domestic splendens do. I think that in the process of breeding in more aggression for their use as fighters (and all fancy varieties originally came from fighters, so they retain that mentality to an extent,) the fish also became hyper-territorial... it makes sense, considering that their aggression is territorial in nature. You don't see an imbellis patrolling the tank over and over again, they pretty much just stick to their favourite areas. Sure, they'll take a look around on occasion, but it's nothing like what my splendens do. There's a pretty dramatic behavioural difference there, considering how closely related the two species are in the wild (it's still argued in some circles that the imbellis are a subspecies of splendens rather than their own species).

tokis , i wouldnt agree with you there. if having a long tail really was so "stressful" it would make me wonder why they still have such long aquarium lives (2plus years ). and , if you dont like the idea of long tailed bettas .................. buy plakats!

2 years is long? Compared to what? How often do bettas actually die from illness rather than old age, and how much does their finnage contribute to this?
Unless you know what the average lifespan of a captive wild splendens or imbellis is, what do you have to compare to? 2 years is average at best, and pretty low compared to the lifespans of many other species in the fishkeeping hobby. It may be average for the species as a whole, but unless you do a study on the difference in lifespan between wild bettas and domestic splendens and between long-finned and plakat varieties, there's no way to know for sure. That might be an interesting thesis study for someone... *coughmecough*

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Its not that they "don't like space" its because so many betta's have been bred to have such huge mutant tails, the fish litterally struggles to live with its long tail in a large normal tank or pond environment. The same is happening to guppys as well because they are being bred to have longer and fancier tails too.

Yeah, that's why I added the "especially for long-finned varieties" part... however, I don't think that's the whole story either. I've had several species of wild betta, and not a single one of them patrols the way domestic splendens do. I think that in the process of breeding in more aggression for their use as fighters (and all fancy varieties originally came from fighters, so they retain that mentality to an extent,) the fish also became hyper-territorial... it makes sense, considering that their aggression is territorial in nature. You don't see an imbellis patrolling the tank over and over again, they pretty much just stick to their favourite areas. Sure, they'll take a look around on occasion, but it's nothing like what my splendens do. There's a pretty dramatic behavioural difference there, considering how closely related the two species are in the wild (it's still argued in some circles that the imbellis are a subspecies of splendens rather than their own species).

tokis , i wouldnt agree with you there. if having a long tail really was so "stressful" it would make me wonder why they still have such long aquarium lives (2plus years ). and , if you dont like the idea of long tailed bettas .................. buy plakats!

2 years is long? Compared to what? How often do bettas actually die from illness rather than old age, and how much does their finnage contribute to this?
Unless you know what the average lifespan of a captive wild splendens or imbellis is, what do you have to compare to? 2 years is average at best, and pretty low compared to the lifespans of many other species in the fishkeeping hobby. It may be average for the species as a whole, but unless you do a study on the difference in lifespan between wild bettas and domestic splendens and between long-finned and plakat varieties, there's no way to know for sure. That might be an interesting thesis study for someone... *coughmecough*

About the life expectancy and living conditions, here is an excellant article on keeping bettas and general info on them;

http/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betta_splendens

"Normally betta fish live to be 2-5 years old, but some betta fishes live to be nearly 8 years old. Male bettas living in laboratories with large individual tanks and daily exercise have lived older than 10 years old."


So i am afraid furryrabbit that 2yrs old is right at the bottom of the average betta life expectancy.

 

[Gankutsuou]

hmmmm.... since when did two+ years become a LONG aquarium life? I haven't seen ANY fish that arent expected to live 2+ that are actually at My local fish stores

I mean, who would BUY something that was gonna die before two years
That's like asking to be stricken with grief. I mean, i can understand taking in a sick fish.... but getting one with a base life of 2 years?

And this has turned intoi an intresting convo, but I just meant it to be "Yay! I got m a minimal betta tank and overpowered my parents!" I mean, he's okay on space. Will be put in the 10 gallon when i get the 40, and then i'll get another betta out of a cup and into the 1 gallon. Maybe i can find several dividers for the 10 gallon

Off to the doctors

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

And this has turned intoi an intresting convo, but I just meant it to be "Yay! I got m a minimal betta tank and overpowered my parents!" I mean, he's okay on space. Will be put in the 10 gallon when i get the 40, and then i'll get another betta out of a cup and into the 1 gallon. Maybe i can find several dividers for the 10 gallon

Off to the doctors

Yes according to the article, a 10gal is much better than a 1gal for a betta, even the article advises at least 2gals for a better- every gallon counts after all.

hmmmm.... since when did two+ years become a LONG aquarium life? I haven't seen ANY fish that arent expected to live 2+ that are actually at My local fish stores

I mean, who would BUY something that was gonna die before two years
That's like asking to be stricken with grief. I mean, i can understand taking in a sick fish.... but getting one with a base life of 2 years?

It depends on the fish, although 2years is not long in comparison to the majority of fish species life spans, it can be considered a ripe old age now days for fish like guppys, where the average life expectancy is between 1-2years old, although one of my male guppys though lived beyond 2yrs old.
Inbreeding has a lot to do with shorter life expectancy as well in fish like guppys and bettas- the more inbred a fish is, the less likely it is to live out a long life expectancy and the more likely its imune system is going to not cope fighting off common aquarium desease or deal with things like water quality problems.

 

[SamUK]

Its not that they "don't like space" its because so many betta's have been bred to have such huge mutant tails, the fish litterally struggles to live with its long tail in a large normal tank or pond environment. The same is happening to guppys as well because they are being bred to have longer and fancier tails too.

Its part of the human ideal of "beauty" in fish. It would be like us breeding us to have legs twice as long as they are- i'm sure you'd struggle to go far easily with 7ft long legs !

ahhhh i didnt realise we had bred the longer tails. thought they were naturally like that and i was gonna say if the tail was such a problem then surely over the years evolution would of helped em out a lil by now? guess its kinda the other way round tho.

I mean, he's okay on space.

youd be ok in a cupboard your whole life, doesnt mean it would be a nice life.


and i dont mean this as an attack on you or anything. jus discussing

 

[Gankutsuou]

I do agree that i wouldn't be okay in a closet. But in size wise, i think of it this way.

Being stuck in a cup - closet size. You can only turn around and live in your own poo w/o a toilet

being put in a one gallon - he has a whole average size US bedroom to himself. Sure, not "Fun" living in a one room apartment with a bathroom and kitchen, but no way out... But it's still better off than 70% of the the world population when you have a roof over your head, and some filered/bubbled water

Being put in a 10 gallon - Wow. he has a whole city block to himself.

So, I think if i spice up the 1 gallon with a few live small plants and some smooth stones to rest on, he'll be all right for a while. Two weeks isn't going to hurt him until i clear the 10 gallon inventory into the 40. (I plan to clone that tank though... he'll be w/o filter for the time, but have temperature regulation and weekly water change. After all... a 10 gallon to himself for the time untill i find suitible tank mates

 

[Synirr]

ahhhh i didnt realise we had bred the longer tails. thought they were naturally like that and i was gonna say if the tail was such a problem then surely over the years evolution would of helped em out a lil by now? guess its kinda the other way round tho.

Haha, yeah evolution has helped them out -- you never see long-finned bettas in the wild. They are less colourful too, in general. Much better camouflaged than the bright red suckers you see in pet shops!

Tokis -- I never trust a Wikipedia article that doesn't give specifics. "Male bettas living in laboratories with large individual tanks and daily exercise have lived older than 10 years old." What species? What was their diet? Finnage type? What lines were they from? What were the tanks like?
It doesn't specify a reference to answer those questions for me either... I'm not saying it's not possible, just that I don't think it's possible with your average domestic splendens. They actually begin to look old at about 3-4 years... fins sometimes curl at the edges, they become more sendentary, duller scales, extremely large body size, etc, and no amount of proper care or exercise can change that. Making an educated guess, I'd say the labortory fish spoken of is most likely a wild species, and may not even be in the splendens complex -- there are many larger species of mouthbrooders, some around 5", that no doubt have a longer lifespan than splendens.

 

[furryrabbit]

i guess my wording wasnt great. its just that i meant < i think > that they have long lives for a fish that is supposedly always stressed in the aquarium , with its long fins - as was said. and many commonly available aquarium fish have lives around the two year mark , and of course , annual killies have just a 1 year life span

 

[Rediahs]

Most fish live longer than 2 years.

1 gallon is fine for a betta, but most would prefer 3 or so.

I used to love long finned bettas, but now that I have owned a few halfmoons I am getting to be more particular to the plakat variety. Just yesterday I performed fin surgery on my poor HM who had a droopy butt and was biting his own tail down to the base. He is sooooo much more active now and looks happy.

And his butt is no longer as droopy. He's still slightly droopy though. But he swims a lot faster and well he just seems healthier. And he's not biting his fins - yet!